• SONAR
  • X3 Comping - I still need a "Rebuild Layers" function, and here's why
2013/10/03 20:44:56
stickman393
Let me start out by saying that I finally "get" the difference between record modes now. My difficulty in understanding comes purely from my history of workflow with 8.5, X1, etc, I think.)
Here's what I did this afternoon:
  • Enable COMPING record mode.
  • Arm "Vocal Takes" track.
  • Set Loop around the first verse.
  • Press [R]
  • Record 7 or 8 takes through the verse, each time getting better as I got familiar with my performance.
  • Press [SPACE] to stop.
  • Adjusted the loop points to the next verse.
  • Repeat process above for all 8 or so "verses".
Finally, I stopped the session and expanded the take lanes to see where we were.
I have 71 take lanes.
This is because, even though I advanced the loop points in the timeline for each verse, SONAR started to record takes into a fresh take lane. So every time through the loop, and every stop-start, increments the take lane count.

 
I would seriously like a "rebuild take lane" option to redistribute the takes into just the top 7 or so lanes. 
Unless I'm missing something, I have to do this manually by repositioning the takes with the mouse.
Tedious!
I know it is purely cosmetic... but if I want to keep all the raw takes (which I might) then I definitely want to make this easier to navigate.
2013/10/03 20:54:54
Stone House Studios
Not doubting your need, but it looks like you would want Sonar to make a lot of suppositions about what you want, that is, based on the new comp features. If you are going to record each verse separately, why not do them as separate tracks, comp each verse, and then comp the verses together?
I guess that sound tedious too, but you are recording the verses independently, so . :  . : . :
 
Brian
2013/10/03 21:04:06
stickman393
Brian - 
You're right - separate tracks seem to be indicated, at least as a work-around. See my other post about overlapping loop points... it gets worse.
I should probably do some tests on less important material - I am very happy with the performance I captured, apart from the glitches.
2013/10/03 21:08:47
yevster
"Rebuilding layers" is probably a bit more complex in practice than in theory. For example, takes might have to be placed out of their original order to avoid overlap with any clip that might already occupy a higher lane. That may create some confusion by itself, as rebuilding will place takes out of familiar order.
 
Instead, why not just zoom far out, lasso-select all the clips, and move them up? Then, you can use the included function to delete empty take lanes. It's somewhat more tedious, but you remain in full control over the order and organization of your takes.
2013/10/03 21:38:04
Stone House Studios
yevster
"Rebuilding layers" is probably a bit more complex in practice than in theory. For example, takes might have to be placed out of their original order to avoid overlap with any clip that might already occupy a higher lane. That may create some confusion by itself, as rebuilding will place takes out of familiar order.
 
Instead, why not just zoom far out, lasso-select all the clips, and move them up? Then, you can use the included function to delete empty take lanes. It's somewhat more tedious, but you remain in full control over the order and organization of your takes.


Have you tried this? I wonder if these new comp lanes are meant to be treated as if they were normal tracks with dragging, etc. Seems that if you want to drag things around in comp lanes that you are not using the right thing.  Just my thoughts.
Brian
2013/10/03 21:51:37
brian brock
rebuild layers worked pretty well in Sonar 8.  Maybe it could have been made better, for example by improving the logic for stacking the clips at a given point in time in the order they were recorded. 
 
No one would be required to rebuild layers if they chose not to, but for cases where it is helpful, it would be nice to be able to do so again.
 
Comping takes is not the only purpose for using lanes/layers.
2013/10/03 22:03:42
Stone House Studios
brian brock
rebuild layers worked pretty well in Sonar 8.  Maybe it could have been made better, for example by improving the logic for stacking the clips at a given point in time in the order they were recorded. 
 
No one would be required to rebuild layers if they chose not to, but for cases where it is helpful, it would be nice to be able to do so again.
 
Comping takes is not the only purpose for using lanes/layers.


But it may be the only reason to use something with "Comp" in it's name!
2013/10/03 22:12:32
guitartrek
I too miss the rebuild function.  I spend a lot of time re-arranging clips and then deleting empty tracks so that I don't wind up with a couple dozen tracks.  I don't have X3 yet and it will be nice to use the "delete empty take" function, but deleting manually is really fast.  Re-arranging clips is the tedious part.
2013/10/03 22:12:57
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
I can see the requirement but I don't think a command to rebuild is the right approach in this case though.
Though in your case it looks neat and obvious, there would be a ton of special cases. e.g what if the takes overlapped slightly? ie you might have done takes where there was a lead in to the section. In that case there wouldn't be a clean space as is obvious in your example. 
Perhaps post record it could detect if there was a gap between the new take and prior takes and then decide whether to "pack" the new take on an existing take lane or not. If there was a gap perhaps it could insert on the same lane. However this might not always be the desired behavior.
Take management is a complicated set of tools/workflows and needs to be carefully designed to cover many corner cases.
2013/10/03 22:13:21
brian brock
But it may be the only reason to use something with "Comp" in it's name!

 
 
I don't understand - did they change the name of Take Lanes to Comp Lanes?  Why would you consider yourself constrained to use a tool only for its intended purpose?  Doesn't anyone remember MacGyver anymore?
 
At any rate, there are a lot of useful and interesting creative things that can be done with these tools, and this feature which was taken out of this tool was helpful for doing some of those interesting things.
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