dorism
As an old timer (sonar 1 user) my experiences with X2 and X2a have made me really sceptical about Sonar and Cakewalk
X2 was stillborn as far as I'm concerned. A complete waste of time and money. On my rig (Z series HP workstation as recommended by Cakewalk!) - it exhibited absolutely dire stability.
 
If you were one of the unlucky one's to be afflicted by the 'graphical bugs' talked about at length on here, then you were on your own. It was actually embarrassing using X2 with clients as they could see the tracks flicker and the clips jumping around when I moved them. toe curling doesn't do it justice. It never got fixed and workarounds had to be implemented.
Even worse - X2 would crash so badly the fault reporter would get bypassed and you could be left with a corrupted project.
 
When bugs were reported they could disappear into the ether with nothing other than an automated response for weeks.
When a response did come back it would often be one of the following
 - not a bug this is how its supposed to work (e.g. being able to move a midi clip into an audio track!)
 - a local issue - something to do with my PC (see point above re: my rig)
 
Do the dev and support teams actually talk about defects? Before going back to the user - someone in cakewalk should be thinking - hang on - being able to move a midi clip into an audio track just doesn't make sense - I know it works as specificed but lets get that sorted because it's illogical   - not just kick it back with  'this is how its intended to work' crap.
X2 was so pathetically unstable I had to shell out £400 for Cubase 7 - in contrast - I have had 6 point releases which included lots of bug fixes and enhancements. I have not had one crash that time (on the same rig).
There is constant dialogue between Steinberg staff and the user community. They have produced an amazing product. Just compare audio quantisation or tempo detection in both and its laughable - similarly scoring, mp3 support out the box, built in audio editor - its just not even in the same ballpark right now.
 
Anyway the purpose of this rant (apart form making me feel better :-) is to raise the point that its not just about products.If it was Sonar would have lost a long time ago.
Its about having ongoing support, a culture and the feeling that the community is being listened to, bugs are being squashed, and products enhanced.
 
I want Cakewalk to find its soul again. It used to be innovative and so ahead of the game - but its fallen behind - pursuing less essential features (like touch) - whilst long overdue features such as scoring and audiosnap remain unchanged in years! Sonar needs to play catch up in so many, many areas, with limited resources it has to be absolutely on the ball and focused. Forget the fluff.
 
Despite my moaning lol -  I haven't actually given up on Sonar yet - why - because I've been a loyal customer for over a decade, I am a supporter and I don't give up that easily -  but if I am to switch back full time, I need to see evidence of the old culture of Cakewalk re-emerging. The spunky upstart who destroyed the old guard. Presonus appear to be taking on that mantle now.
 
I want to see a commitment to catch up and overtake the competition (where's the roadmap guys?), fix the product continuously between major releases, and be completely open about its intentions.
Sonar's main attractions to me are its amazing workflow, single window paradigm (cusbase it a nightmare on that front lol) and this community. With a bit of TLC it could be absolutely amazing.
and..
 
brreathe

 
 
Now... when is X3 coming out :)

I see several bug reports from you with extremely minimal and vague details. Some of them were feature requests, but many of them responded with the suggestion to contact technical support. If your report is as short as "Sluggish behavior" (random example but some of these reports were that minimal in details), then the Problem Report isn't the proper place for getting help, Technical Support is. The goal of the Problem Report form is to capture bugs. "Sluggish behavior" isn't a bug. The Problem Report form isn't our system for direct interaction regarding getting assistance (it states this multiple times when filling out the form). While I'm sure you realized that at the time of filling out the reports, the point of the automated replies was to suggest that the issues being reported would be better handled by someone who can help versus a bug tracking system.
 
The Problem Reports that we did ask for more details from the Problem Report system were not given replies. 
 
When I look at the tickets you sent in to support I only see two tickets that were download related and resolved. I do not see any tickets regarding the issues you were reporting. In other words, it doesn't look like the suggestion to contact support was met with any action on your part.
 
Support is here to help, but we need to be give the proper chance. In this case, it doesn't seem like anyone was. I don't mean to call you out on this, but I only see two emails to tech support about unrelated issues and zero calls. Suggesting we don't have a proper support system in place is extremely far from the truth. We help countless customers with the types of issues you were reporting all day, every day. You're twisting this story to sound as if we're not properly supporting customers, but all I'm seeing are problem reports with extremely short, vague details regarding your experience.

"buggy" is one of the most misused words on these forums.  There are lots of things I don't like but I would hardly call them  bugs.  For me, when I upgrade, i ask myself "will this improve my workflow enough to make me more money than if  i did not upgrade".  Considering just a two hour net decrease in man hours over the course of a year makes that answer yes, upgrading is likely a yes.   I'm not sure what criteria others use, but I think those on the fence should find that fundamental question that simplifies things.  It beats the hell out of wild speculation on hypothetical BS.

Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]

dorism
As an old timer (sonar 1 user) my experiences with X2 and X2a have made me really sceptical about Sonar and Cakewalk
X2 was stillborn as far as I'm concerned. A complete waste of time and money. On my rig (Z series HP workstation as recommended by Cakewalk!) - it exhibited absolutely dire stability.
 
If you were one of the unlucky one's to be afflicted by the 'graphical bugs' talked about at length on here, then you were on your own. It was actually embarrassing using X2 with clients as they could see the tracks flicker and the clips jumping around when I moved them. toe curling doesn't do it justice. It never got fixed and workarounds had to be implemented.
Even worse - X2 would crash so badly the fault reporter would get bypassed and you could be left with a corrupted project.
 
When bugs were reported they could disappear into the ether with nothing other than an automated response for weeks.
When a response did come back it would often be one of the following
 - not a bug this is how its supposed to work (e.g. being able to move a midi clip into an audio track!)
 - a local issue - something to do with my PC (see point above re: my rig)
 
Do the dev and support teams actually talk about defects? Before going back to the user - someone in cakewalk should be thinking - hang on - being able to move a midi clip into an audio track just doesn't make sense - I know it works as specificed but lets get that sorted because it's illogical   - not just kick it back with  'this is how its intended to work' crap.
X2 was so pathetically unstable I had to shell out £400 for Cubase 7 - in contrast - I have had 6 point releases which included lots of bug fixes and enhancements. I have not had one crash that time (on the same rig).
There is constant dialogue between Steinberg staff and the user community. They have produced an amazing product. Just compare audio quantisation or tempo detection in both and its laughable - similarly scoring, mp3 support out the box, built in audio editor - its just not even in the same ballpark right now.
 
Anyway the purpose of this rant (apart form making me feel better :-) is to raise the point that its not just about products.If it was Sonar would have lost a long time ago.
Its about having ongoing support, a culture and the feeling that the community is being listened to, bugs are being squashed, and products enhanced.
 
I want Cakewalk to find its soul again. It used to be innovative and so ahead of the game - but its fallen behind - pursuing less essential features (like touch) - whilst long overdue features such as scoring and audiosnap remain unchanged in years! Sonar needs to play catch up in so many, many areas, with limited resources it has to be absolutely on the ball and focused. Forget the fluff.
 
Despite my moaning lol -  I haven't actually given up on Sonar yet - why - because I've been a loyal customer for over a decade, I am a supporter and I don't give up that easily -  but if I am to switch back full time, I need to see evidence of the old culture of Cakewalk re-emerging. The spunky upstart who destroyed the old guard. Presonus appear to be taking on that mantle now.
 
I want to see a commitment to catch up and overtake the competition (where's the roadmap guys?), fix the product continuously between major releases, and be completely open about its intentions.
Sonar's main attractions to me are its amazing workflow, single window paradigm (cusbase it a nightmare on that front lol) and this community. With a bit of TLC it could be absolutely amazing.
and..
 
brreathe

 
 
Now... when is X3 coming out :)

I see several bug reports from you with extremely minimal and vague details. Some of them were feature requests, but many of them responded with the suggestion to contact technical support. If your report is as short as "Sluggish behavior" (random example but some of these reports were that minimal in details), then the Problem Report isn't the proper place for getting help, Technical Support is. The goal of the Problem Report form is to capture bugs. "Sluggish behavior" isn't a bug. The Problem Report form isn't our system for direct interaction regarding getting assistance (it states this multiple times when filling out the form). While I'm sure you realized that at the time of filling out the reports, the point of the automated replies was to suggest that the issues being reported would be better handled by someone who can help versus a bug tracking system.
 
The Problem Reports that we did ask for more details from the Problem Report system were not given replies. 
 
When I look at the tickets you sent in to support I only see two tickets that were download related and resolved. I do not see any tickets regarding the issues you were reporting. In other words, it doesn't look like the suggestion to contact support was met with any action on your part.
 
Support is here to help, but we need to be give the proper chance. In this case, it doesn't seem like anyone was. I don't mean to call you out on this, but I only see two emails to tech support about unrelated issues and zero calls. Suggesting we don't have a proper support system in place is extremely far from the truth. We help countless customers with the types of issues you were reporting all day, every day. You're twisting this story to sound as if we're not properly supporting customers, but all I'm seeing are problem reports with extremely short, vague details regarding your experience.

Ryan,
 
Your avatar; is that your take on all Cakewalk users who express (justifiable) disconent over X2? Dorism's points seemed wholly legit and I too have been plagued with X2's 'gimmicks'. If I were Cakewalk I'd be sobbing my little heart out over how many long time users are unhappy about X2.

JenksTer
 
 
Ryan,
 
Your avatar; is that your take on all Cakewalk users who express (justifiable) disconent over X2? Dorism's points seemed wholly legit and I too have been plagued with X2's 'gimmicks'. If I were Cakewalk I'd be sobbing my little heart out over how many long time users are unhappy about X2.

It's lighthearted humor. Anyone who has ever worked with me knows how passionately I care about helping people out and digging into complicated issues. We all need to have some fun at our jobs.

Please don't put words in my mouth or attempt to project that I scoff at user issues. I did not suggest that people's concerns were not valid. I've never suggested that. I've helped tens of thousands of customers in my time here at Cakewalk and genuinely enjoy it. I think you're picking on the wrong person for the sake of trying to prove a point. If there is anyone in the company who genuinely cares about user experiences, it's me. For the past 5 years I've my life I've spent 70+ hours a week supporting customers and students with using and troubleshooting music software. This isn't exactly just my job, it's my life.
 
The point of my interaction on this post was to identify that we're here to support people and that stating that we're not is inaccurate and should be cleared up. There is a lot of misinformation in this thread. It is very inaccurate regarding how hard we all work to support customers day to day and throughout the entirety of a product's life cycle. 
 
I've said it time and time again, but spreading misinformation like this is NOT helpful to anyone. It misinforms newcomers to the products and misdirects them for where they can go to get help. Any long time user should know by now that the best thing we can all do to help one another is work together with the systems we have in place.
 
Anyhow, getting back to the Avatar, perhaps I should photoshop a smiley face on it? 

dubdisciple
Considering just a two hour net decrease in man hours over the course of a year makes that answer yes, upgrading is likely a yes.  

THIS !!!
 
We're over-thinking this, people.  If we were talking a $10,000 cost, then a hot debate would make sense.  The releases are a no-brainer in ROI.  Yes, maybe there are some bugs / irritants / rough spots / inelegant flows that are not magnificently solved with X3.  It is clear that a great many things ARE dealt with.
 
I don't produce recordings for a living, yet, I can easily see $150 of added revenue over 12 months.  And I can see much more than that if I place a value on the time I will save.  I see 15 or 20 projects where I'll use Melodyne fairly actively, and I know that I'll save at least 30 minutes and a lot of aggravation on each one of those.

After my experiences with Adobe taking over Cool Edit, I want to get the last version of Sonar X__ before Gibson and Tascam get in there and muck it all up.

JenksTer

Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]

dorism
As an old timer (sonar 1 user) my experiences with X2 and X2a have made me really sceptical about Sonar and Cakewalk
X2 was stillborn as far as I'm concerned. A complete waste of time and money. On my rig (Z series HP workstation as recommended by Cakewalk!) - it exhibited absolutely dire stability.
 
If you were one of the unlucky one's to be afflicted by the 'graphical bugs' talked about at length on here, then you were on your own. It was actually embarrassing using X2 with clients as they could see the tracks flicker and the clips jumping around when I moved them. toe curling doesn't do it justice. It never got fixed and workarounds had to be implemented.
Even worse - X2 would crash so badly the fault reporter would get bypassed and you could be left with a corrupted project.
 
When bugs were reported they could disappear into the ether with nothing other than an automated response for weeks.
When a response did come back it would often be one of the following
 - not a bug this is how its supposed to work (e.g. being able to move a midi clip into an audio track!)
 - a local issue - something to do with my PC (see point above re: my rig)
 
Do the dev and support teams actually talk about defects? Before going back to the user - someone in cakewalk should be thinking - hang on - being able to move a midi clip into an audio track just doesn't make sense - I know it works as specificed but lets get that sorted because it's illogical   - not just kick it back with  'this is how its intended to work' crap.
X2 was so pathetically unstable I had to shell out £400 for Cubase 7 - in contrast - I have had 6 point releases which included lots of bug fixes and enhancements. I have not had one crash that time (on the same rig).
There is constant dialogue between Steinberg staff and the user community. They have produced an amazing product. Just compare audio quantisation or tempo detection in both and its laughable - similarly scoring, mp3 support out the box, built in audio editor - its just not even in the same ballpark right now.
 
Anyway the purpose of this rant (apart form making me feel better :-) is to raise the point that its not just about products.If it was Sonar would have lost a long time ago.
Its about having ongoing support, a culture and the feeling that the community is being listened to, bugs are being squashed, and products enhanced.
 
I want Cakewalk to find its soul again. It used to be innovative and so ahead of the game - but its fallen behind - pursuing less essential features (like touch) - whilst long overdue features such as scoring and audiosnap remain unchanged in years! Sonar needs to play catch up in so many, many areas, with limited resources it has to be absolutely on the ball and focused. Forget the fluff.
 
Despite my moaning lol -  I haven't actually given up on Sonar yet - why - because I've been a loyal customer for over a decade, I am a supporter and I don't give up that easily -  but if I am to switch back full time, I need to see evidence of the old culture of Cakewalk re-emerging. The spunky upstart who destroyed the old guard. Presonus appear to be taking on that mantle now.
 
I want to see a commitment to catch up and overtake the competition (where's the roadmap guys?), fix the product continuously between major releases, and be completely open about its intentions.
Sonar's main attractions to me are its amazing workflow, single window paradigm (cusbase it a nightmare on that front lol) and this community. With a bit of TLC it could be absolutely amazing.
and..
 
brreathe

 
 
Now... when is X3 coming out :)

I see several bug reports from you with extremely minimal and vague details. Some of them were feature requests, but many of them responded with the suggestion to contact technical support. If your report is as short as "Sluggish behavior" (random example but some of these reports were that minimal in details), then the Problem Report isn't the proper place for getting help, Technical Support is. The goal of the Problem Report form is to capture bugs. "Sluggish behavior" isn't a bug. The Problem Report form isn't our system for direct interaction regarding getting assistance (it states this multiple times when filling out the form). While I'm sure you realized that at the time of filling out the reports, the point of the automated replies was to suggest that the issues being reported would be better handled by someone who can help versus a bug tracking system.
 
The Problem Reports that we did ask for more details from the Problem Report system were not given replies. 
 
When I look at the tickets you sent in to support I only see two tickets that were download related and resolved. I do not see any tickets regarding the issues you were reporting. In other words, it doesn't look like the suggestion to contact support was met with any action on your part.
 
Support is here to help, but we need to be give the proper chance. In this case, it doesn't seem like anyone was. I don't mean to call you out on this, but I only see two emails to tech support about unrelated issues and zero calls. Suggesting we don't have a proper support system in place is extremely far from the truth. We help countless customers with the types of issues you were reporting all day, every day. You're twisting this story to sound as if we're not properly supporting customers, but all I'm seeing are problem reports with extremely short, vague details regarding your experience.

Ryan,
 
Your avatar; is that your take on all Cakewalk users who express (justifiable) disconent over X2? Dorism's points seemed wholly legit and I too have been plagued with X2's 'gimmicks'. If I were Cakewalk I'd be sobbing my little heart out over how many long time users are unhappy about X2.

With the greatest respect I am filling in bug forms for your product which should work.
 
But doesn't.
 
I'm doing this in my own time. I think the 'bugs' the had been discussed in huge detail already on the forum. None of this should be a surprise to anyone at Cakewalk. The response should have been 'duplicate' ticket. Fix on the way. Moving midi into an audio track of vice Verse. Try it out yourself for goodness sake. Its standard behaviour and baffling. If there was a good reason for designing it like this then that would merit a decent response.
 
The reasreason I filed them was out of frustration that nothing had been done to address those concerns. Throwing my hat into the ring so to speak rather than sitting here moaning about it I wanted to do something about proactive. 'calling out' the a customer in a public forum when they have invested heavily in your products and trying to participate to make your product better is not a wise move. See my point about culture.
 
 
 
 
 

He's saying he can help if you explain the problems properly, and can't if you don't. And you know, that's just how everything is.

 
What is technical support's non us number? I'll call them this weekend

Actually Ryan, while you're reading this thread, I just thought to myself I could do with a sandwich. And did you bring me one? Did you hell. Here I sit, no sandwich. Call yourself "support"? It's a joke. A JOKE.