That explanation of the 8,5 release was incredible.
 
Bob Bone
 

backwoods
 
 You're incorrect. Noel explicitly states so here: http://forum.cakewalk.com/SONAR-85-The-Fine-Print-m1841847.aspx

Do you think Noel might have a vested interest in making Sonar 8.5 seem like something more than a .5 release? I mean, Cakewalk was charging for that .5 release, they did take a lot of flack for doing that (they didn't for previous "less than a 1.x" version update), and Noel does work for Cakewalk. Heck, Cakewalk themselves called it SONAR EIGHT POINT FIVE. They coulda called it 9, but someone in the company said "no, it's not a 9, it's more of a point five."
 
Again:
Cubase 6.5: Free
Studio One 2.5 (huge update): Free
Studio One 2.6 (pretty bug update): Free
Reaper 4.5: Doesn't count against the 2 versions that your license is good for

Cubase 6- 6.5 cost $50 I think, I bought it, then sold it.
 
I trust what Noel says about Cakewalk more than your speculation sorry.
 
 

Funkybot
Cubase 6.5: Free

Nope! Cubase 6.5 was a paid update, with a grace period for those who bought 6 close to 6.5's release date. And the word is, 7.5 will be a paid update as well.
 
Cakewalk's biggest blunder with 8.5 was not calling it Sonar 9.

yevster

Funkybot
Cubase 6.5: Free

Nope! Cubase 6.5 was a paid update, with a grace period for those who bought 6 close to 6.5's release date. And the word is, 7.5 will be a paid update as well.
 
Cakewalk's biggest blunder with 8.5 was not calling it Sonar 9.

Rather subjective and to what point? - have you read the explanation behind 8.5?
 
Bob Bone
 

Funkybot

SvenArne
 
Again, I'd love to see a change for the better (by all accounts Stienberg has gotten much better since the Yamaha buy-out), but X3 definitely doesn't seem to be it, and I'm not sure it'll ever come.

So you haven't used the product and you've already drawn your conclusion. That sounds pretty reasonable.

Funkybot

backwoods
 
 You're incorrect. Noel explicitly states so here: http://forum.cakewalk.com/SONAR-85-The-Fine-Print-m1841847.aspx

Do you think Noel might have a vested interest in making Sonar 8.5 seem like something more than a .5 release? I mean, Cakewalk was charging for that .5 release, they did take a lot of flack for doing that (they didn't for previous "less than a 1.x" version update), and Noel does work for Cakewalk. Heck, Cakewalk themselves called it SONAR EIGHT POINT FIVE. They coulda called it 9, but someone in the company said "no, it's not a 9, it's more of a point five."
 
Again:
Cubase 6.5: Free
Studio One 2.5 (huge update): Free
Studio One 2.6 (pretty bug update): Free
Reaper 4.5: Doesn't count against the 2 versions that your license is good for

A lot more to this story than meets the eyes. Again you are talking about pure speculation. By no means was SONAR 8.5 a point release. It was for a time called SONAR X9.  I won't get into the history but SONAR 8.5 was definitely worth of a paid update. Way different than any of your examples above and I think you might be wrong about Cubase 6.5. But comparing the jump from Studio One 2.5 to 2.6 to SONAR 8 to 8.5 is ridiculous. Sorry, even if I didn't work at Cakewalk, I would tell you that.

SvenArne

Funkybot

SvenArne

Funkybot
X3 will get released with some bugs (many of which have existed for years), you'll get a maintenance release called X3A that only fixes some bugs, then have nothing but silence from Cakewalk for a year until X4? 

Come on, when did that ever happen except that once..?

 
First, "that once" you're talking about wasn't faraway history, it was the last time. It was within the last 10 months. What would you be saying if they did the same thing with X3 and only released a single patch for a buggy DAW? Would you say, "can't wait for X4 to get released with all the new bugs and half baked features?" I'd hope not. That's a sign of an abusive relationship with your DAW-maker.
 
Also, does "that one time" include Sonar 8.5? That was a .5 release (by Cakewalk's own standards) and was a paid upgrade. Studio One 2.5 was free. Reaper 4.5 didn't count against the 2 full version numbers Reaper licenses are good for. Cubase 6.5 also free from what I remember.
 
So, it's not just "that one time" it happens every year.

As happy as I am with X2a, I have no reason to expect that one maintenance patch will be the standard from now on. Historically, three or four patches have been the norm. Most people would agree that "8.5" may as well have been called "9". The step from 8 to 8.5 was as significant as any paid release in Cakewalk history. 
 
Anyone remember SONAR 8 (not 8.5)? That one received some punishment...

One maintenance patch is not going to be the standard. Count on it. FWIW, we did put a lot into SONAR X2a and could have made those 2-3 patches. 

Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
 
So you haven't used the product and you've already drawn your conclusion. That sounds pretty reasonable.

Is that Andrew saying, "So you haven't used the product and you've already drawn your conclusion. That sounds pretty reasonable."
 
If so, let me ask some questions:
 
1. Did you guys include MP3 encoding for free?
2. Did you guys fix the Disk May Be Full bug? What about how you write/save projects so they don't corrupt so easily? What about duplicate notes on quantization? What about the Sonar icon remaining in the tray after a close (which often prevents a new instance from opening without manually shutting down SonarPDR.exe in the task manager)? Any of those?
3. Did you improve signal flow to allow for more advanced audio routing? Can I route a VSTi output to an audio input?
4. Have you updated the Staff View or improved notation?
5. Will Sonar X3 recognize my mono UAD plugins and use DSP accordingly? 
6. Does Sonar X3 include a dynamically resizable vector based console so I can see the full strips in the dock? Did you redesign the console to make better use of screen real estate? The 8.5 console was much better IMO.
7. Did you get rid of the annoying pop-up questions when pasting or inserting an instrument track that distract from Workflow?
8. Did you make it easier to quickly add/subtract outputs to a VSTi (a la Studio One)?
9. Did you finally create proper Instrument Tracks that can house MIDI and audio effects? Do they have all the same functionality as the separate MIDI+audio tracks did, just intelligently combined into one?
10. Did you add varispeed playback and recording like Reaper (man that's fun, and great for some Beatles-esque harmonies)?
11. Is VST 2/3 support FINALLY built in and not part of legacy Fxpansion code from their VST wrapper (which we wouldn't have needed if you opted to support VST natively from the get go and not DXi - but I digress)? Will it recognize which VST plugins send/receive tempo information, and can send receive MIDI without having to go into a separate plugin Properties window?
12. Did you simplify the Snap to Grid features which have clearly caused confusion (used to work great BTW - wasn't broken but it got fixed)
13. Can I navigate from plugin to plugin on a channel from within a single plugin's UI (a la Logic and Studio One)?
14. How much better is comping in X3? It looks like you made improvements here, this is nice.
15. Most importantly: how much less will Sonar X3 crash compared to prior versions? Was there a focus on stability? Perhaps rewriting VST support will fix a lot of that, but I'd like your thoughts.
 
Andrew, I'm glad you guys: 1) may have rewritten VST support entirely (it was overdue, but if it's here, great), and 2) appeared to have made tweaks to Take Lanes (they're a good idea, but were just not implemented well last time), and also 3) have finally got rid of the max plugin limit. These are all good things. However, that's a very small part of what I want to see you guys address. And yes, I'm basing this off of the bullet points I've seen. Andrew, you can come back and answer my questions in a few days once the full info can be released if you can't disclose some of this now.
 
My point: I don't think most of the above has been addressed by X3, so I don't need to use it. If you guys only addressed item #1, I'd be more interested in X3 than I am based on the bullet points that have leaked. If you addressed items 1-5 on my list only, I'd be almost certain to upgrade. I think maybe you covered 2-4 items on the list though, and not enough of my top 5 to get me excited.  
 
EDIT
I just want to add again, there are a lot of things I LOVE in Sonar. I've been a user for over a decade. I'm sour on the direction it's been going, but nothing's permanent. Andrew, if anything, take these critiques as feedback and things you may want to address in some future release (if not already). Work on addressing some of these things. Work on getting me back on the Sonar wagon for X5 or X4 if not sooner. 
 
Think about doing less frequent releases with bigger changes too. The late-September/early-October period doesn't NEED to be Sonar time every single year. I'd be fine if you guys waited 18 months to get some of this stuff really ironed out.
 
Consider adding Mac support. Cross-platform support becomes more important to me each year as I occasionally get projects originated on a Mac, or dare I say: after Apple released those awesome looking Mac Pro's.

Funkybot

Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
 
So you haven't used the product and you've already drawn your conclusion. That sounds pretty reasonable.

Is that Andrew saying, "So you haven't used the product and you've already drawn your conclusion. That sounds pretty reasonable."
 
If so, let me ask some questions:
 
1. Did you guys include MP3 encoding for free?
2. Did you guys fix the Disk May Be Full bug? What about how you write/save projects so they don't corrupt so easily? What about duplicate notes on quantization? What about the Sonar icon remaining in the tray after a close (which often prevents a new instance from opening without manually shutting down SonarPDR.exe in the task manager)? Any of those?
3. Did you improve signal flow to allow for more advanced audio routing? Can I route a VSTi output to an audio input?
4. Have you updated the Staff View or improved notation?
5. Will Sonar X3 recognize my mono UAD plugins and use DSP accordingly? 
6. Does Sonar X3 include a dynamically resizable vector based console so I can see the full strips in the dock? Did you redesign the console to make better use of screen real estate? The 8.5 console was much better IMO.
7. Did you get rid of the annoying pop-up questions when pasting or inserting an instrument track that distract from Workflow?
8. Did you make it easier to quickly add/subtract outputs to a VSTi (a la Studio One)?
9. Did you finally create proper Instrument Tracks that can house MIDI and audio effects? Do they have all the same functionality as the separate MIDI+audio tracks did, just intelligently combined into one?
10. Did you add varispeed playback and recording like Reaper (man that's fun, and great for some Beatles-esque harmonies)?
11. Is VST 2/3 support FINALLY built in and not part of legacy Fxpansion code from their VST wrapper (which we wouldn't have needed if you opted to support VST natively from the get go and not DXi - but I digress)? Will it recognize which VST plugins send/receive tempo information, and can send receive MIDI without having to go into a separate plugin Properties window?
12. Did you simplify the Snap to Grid features which have clearly caused confusion (used to work great BTW - wasn't broken but it got fixed)
13. Can I navigate from plugin to plugin on a channel from within a single plugin's UI (a la Logic and Studio One)?
14. How much better is comping in X3? It looks like you made improvements here, this is nice.
15. Most importantly: how much less will Sonar X3 crash compared to prior versions? Was there a focus on stability? Perhaps rewriting VST support will fix a lot of that, but I'd like your thoughts.
 
Andrew, I'm glad you guys: 1) may have rewritten VST support entirely (it was overdue, but if it's here, great), and 2) appeared to have made tweaks to Take Lanes (they're a good idea, but were just not implemented well last time), and also 3) have finally got rid of the max plugin limit. These are all good things. However, that's a very small part of what I want to see you guys address. And yes, I'm basing this off of the bullet points I've seen. Andrew, you can come back and answer my questions in a few days once the full info can be released if you can't disclose some of this now.
 
My point: I don't think most of the above has been addressed by X3, so I don't need to use it. If you guys only addressed item #1, I'd be more interested in X3 than I am based on the bullet points that have leaked. If you addressed items 1-5 on my list only, I'd be almost certain to upgrade. I think maybe you covered 2-4 items on the list though, and not enough of my top 5 to get me excited.  
 
EDIT
I just want to add again, there are a lot of things I LOVE in Sonar. I've been a user for over a decade. I'm sour on the direction it's been going, but nothing's permanent. Andrew, if anything, take these critiques as feedback and things you may want to address in some future release (if not already). Work on addressing some of these things. Work on getting me back on the Sonar wagon for X5 or X4 if not sooner. 
 
Think about doing less frequent releases with bigger changes too. The late-September/early-October period doesn't NEED to be Sonar time every single year. I'd be fine if you guys waited 18 months to get some of this stuff really ironed out.
 
Consider adding Mac support. Cross-platform support becomes more important to me each year as I occasionally get projects originated on a Mac, or dare I say: after Apple released those awesome looking Mac Pro's.

 I'm just saying you are drawing conclusions based on a few marketing bullets. Why don't we let the product ship first and then we can talk. We are interested in all you have to say. But we can't have this conversation right now when the product is not even out. Way too much speculation going on is the basic point.