Pedro,
 
Well said!  I think curiosity is an important component of it all.  If one has a voracious curiosity about things...it's like a carrot in front of the horse(for creativity.)  What alot of musicians consider *maturity* unfortunately means to stop thinking intuitively.  Obviously, with that definition, we want to stay very immature until we leave this mortal coil;  and for that matter put a road block to all forms of rhetoric and thinking penurious of intuition and curiosity.  For an interesting read on this problem check out Jung's *psychological types*.

eph221
Pedro,
 
Well said!  I think curiosity is an important component of it all.  If one has a voracious curiosity about things...it's like a carrot in front of the horse(for creativity.)  What alot of musicians consider *maturity* unfortunately means to stop thinking intuitively.  Obviously, with that definition, we want to stay very immature until we leave this mortal coil;  and for that matter put a road block to all forms of rhetoric and thinking penurious of intuition and curiosity.  For an interesting read on this problem check out Jung's *psychological types*.

Thx. Gosh knows I could use some help with music teaching and learning. The only problem I have had with two instructors, is that I know so much music (and have it and can show it), and I am more interested in learning how to do some of those things, and most of them ... don't know it ... because all they know is the "theory" and the "scales" and where the fingers go. I could not even imagine, a couple of those folks even enjoying some intentionally missed note in the middle of a chord, as is the case with XTC, and how it does not hurt the piece. And the same for quite a few other experimentation folks.
 
I know I'm a bit of a social rebel, but "learning" is more about you talking to that instrument, than it is really about the notes. It's almost like saying that this chord is happy and the next one is sad, and that is one of the greatest BS's ever invented, specially the major/minor stuff ... there are ways to play a minor key "happy" just like there are ways to play the major key "sad". I just wish I knew these better and an instrument better so I could show it, but really ... BACH has already done that exercise for us!

I'm not disparaging traditional theory.  It's all important.  What you said about unlearning is really about taking the eagle- eye view of the instrument versus the titmouse.

Hi,
 

craigb Leg one - Knowledge of your chosen instrument.

You should understand how your instrument makes sound, how to set it up, how to clean and maintain it, what each part does and how to tune it. You should also know what it's musical range is, how the notes and chords are configured, how to alter the basics (e.g., alternate tunings, capo use, baritone vs. standard, how many strings?, string gauges, slides, tremolos, in-series or out pickups, single coils vs. multiple coils, in phase or out, muting, etc.) as well as correct playing techniques for whichever styles you are interested in.
...

 
You do know how many bass guitar teachers have shown me all that, right? NONE. They all wanted me to play bleeping Chuck Berry and I was not interested!
 

craigb Leg two - Music theory.

Here is where you learn what music itself is all about. From chords, chord progressions, arpeggios, notes, keys, scales, rests, bends, portamento, vibrato, harmonics, modes, octaves, bars, tab and staff.
...

 
I would like to disagree here. Sometimes you find a set of fingerings that sound perfect for your ear and represents the cows grazing in the sunset, and then being milked in the morning, and it has nothing to do with the notes, or the chords or the keys ... your inner mind automatically went from here to there, because it was how the "visual" side of your inner story kinda told you to go, and how you "interpreted" your inner movie.
 
Almost every one of those details are AFTER THE FACT, of the creative process, unless you believe that everyone uses a computer to compose now, and will never even play an instrument, in which case, all this is redundant and not even considered. Let's start with Rap!
 
And we haven't even mentioned "effects" and "sound" and how it affects all of those details mentioned.
 

craigb Leg three - Ear training.
This falls into two camps: Absolute pitch and relative pitch. The abilities to know what a note is when you hear it and to know what chord is being played when you hear it. ...

 
I think this is OK for an academic exercise. Not OK, in almost ALL of rock music history, that originally was setup to break the rigidness of the music circles. Even jazz was laughed at for not being serious music way back when, although that might have been more of a color barrier than otherwise, which is very hard to disseminate.
 
But using "ear training" to ENSURE that you are LISTENING and working with that other person, is something that needs to be considered and learned better. The only issue here, is teaching how to adjust and react to it, which is not hard, and will bring all your inner knowledge to the forefront real quick, but it is the difference between good and average player. This is easily TAUGHT in advanced acting classes, for example, and can also be taught for music.
I like the studies on both of those, and even bought the CD's ... but his teaching method is a bit odd and scary, since I do not associate "notes" or "chords" with colors ... I associate them with movies and visuals ... and for me, all music is a continuous movie with story and such. The notes are the mechanical side of it.
 
This is really hard to explain to most people, because a music teacher (specially) will immediately say ... you're not fit to do music! It's like Mahler ... wrote a symphony for his wife ... and it didn't phase her ... she still walked out. You gonna say that Mahler was out of tune, or she was?
 

craigb Leg four - Song theory

This area includes song structure, verses, choruses, codas, bridges, intros, outros, time signatures, melody, harmony, soloing, song writing, orchestrating, etc.
...

This is after the fact stuff for most people, and specially with the advent of rock 60 or so years ago, when things were done because they felt good and right, not becausse of any of these things. In fact, most of the Beatle stuff was about breaking those traditions and doing something else with it.
 

craigb
...
Randy will be teaching the class on finding hookers and blow while dealing with clingy groupies. CJ will discuss studio setup. Dave covers security concepts. Bapu has asked to teach a morning class apparently (all it says is "Am"). Rain and Jarvse will co-teach a class on how to dress to match your chosen genre. Others are still signing up!
...

 
I'm offended!
 
I would have been the door person with the t-shi(r)t that says ... "I hate musik!" ... and the t-shirt has that contorted face listening to something horrible ... in blue, of course!
 
PS: I like what you did ... it was well meaning and good, although I really thought it just needed a more open idea about music itself. Please spend some time reading the book on Andy Partridge, or the one on that German music (Future Days), and then if you have time, the one on Robert Wyatt (Different Every Time), for some really good eye openers about music and how some folks dealt with it. Hopefully we will not think that Robert was too drunk to know the difference, but his consistency suggests a lot more.

Moshkito
Hi,
 

craigb Leg one - Knowledge of your chosen instrument.

You should understand how your instrument makes sound, how to set it up, how to clean and maintain it, what each part does and how to tune it. You should also know what it's musical range is, how the notes and chords are configured, how to alter the basics (e.g., alternate tunings, capo use, baritone vs. standard, how many strings?, string gauges, slides, tremolos, in-series or out pickups, single coils vs. multiple coils, in phase or out, muting, etc.) as well as correct playing techniques for whichever styles you are interested in.
...

 
You do know how many bass guitar teachers have shown me all that, right? NONE. They all wanted me to play bleeping Chuck Berry and I was not interested!
 

craigb Leg two - Music theory.

Here is where you learn what music itself is all about. From chords, chord progressions, arpeggios, notes, keys, scales, rests, bends, portamento, vibrato, harmonics, modes, octaves, bars, tab and staff.
...

 
I would like to disagree here. Sometimes you find a set of fingerings that sound perfect for your ear and represents the cows grazing in the sunset, and then being milked in the morning, and it has nothing to do with the notes, or the chords or the keys ... your inner mind automatically went from here to there, because it was how the "visual" side of your inner story kinda told you to go, and how you "interpreted" your inner movie.
 
Almost every one of those details are AFTER THE FACT, of the creative process, unless you believe that everyone uses a computer to compose now, and will never even play an instrument, in which case, all this is redundant and not even considered. Let's start with Rap!
 
And we haven't even mentioned "effects" and "sound" and how it affects all of those details mentioned.
 

craigb Leg three - Ear training.
This falls into two camps: Absolute pitch and relative pitch. The abilities to know what a note is when you hear it and to know what chord is being played when you hear it. ...

 
I think this is OK for an academic exercise. Not OK, in almost ALL of rock music history, that originally was setup to break the rigidness of the music circles. Even jazz was laughed at for not being serious music way back when, although that might have been more of a color barrier than otherwise, which is very hard to disseminate.
 
But using "ear training" to ENSURE that you are LISTENING and working with that other person, is something that needs to be considered and learned better. The only issue here, is teaching how to adjust and react to it, which is not hard, and will bring all your inner knowledge to the forefront real quick, but it is the difference between good and average player. This is easily TAUGHT in advanced acting classes, for example, and can also be taught for music.
I like the studies on both of those, and even bought the CD's ... but his teaching method is a bit odd and scary, since I do not associate "notes" or "chords" with colors ... I associate them with movies and visuals ... and for me, all music is a continuous movie with story and such. The notes are the mechanical side of it.
 
This is really hard to explain to most people, because a music teacher (specially) will immediately say ... you're not fit to do music! It's like Mahler ... wrote a symphony for his wife ... and it didn't phase her ... she still walked out. You gonna say that Mahler was out of tune, or she was?
 

craigb Leg four - Song theory

This area includes song structure, verses, choruses, codas, bridges, intros, outros, time signatures, melody, harmony, soloing, song writing, orchestrating, etc.
...

This is after the fact stuff for most people, and specially with the advent of rock 60 or so years ago, when things were done because they felt good and right, not becausse of any of these things. In fact, most of the Beatle stuff was about breaking those traditions and doing something else with it.
 

craigb
...
Randy will be teaching the class on finding hookers and blow while dealing with clingy groupies. CJ will discuss studio setup. Dave covers security concepts. Bapu has asked to teach a morning class apparently (all it says is "Am"). Rain and Jarvse will co-teach a class on how to dress to match your chosen genre. Others are still signing up!
...

 
I'm offended!
 
I would have been the door person with the t-shi(r)t that says ... "I hate musik!" ... and the t-shirt has that contorted face listening to something horrible ... in blue, of course!
 
PS: I like what you did ... it was well meaning and good, although I really thought it just needed a more open idea about music itself. Please spend some time reading the book on Andy Partridge, or the one on that German music (Future Days), and then if you have time, the one on Robert Wyatt (Different Every Time), for some really good eye openers about music and how some folks dealt with it. Hopefully we will not think that Robert was too drunk to know the difference, but his consistency suggests a lot more.

 
I anxiously await Craig's response!

eph221
 
... 
I anxiously await Craig's response!
...

I kinda don't. Craig knows that I know that he also listens to some other music's and has a good feel for different things, however, I find it interesting that his write up does not consider a lot of those experimental things, and how they were done. Not a single bit of Tangerine Dream, in their first 4 or 5 albums was done with any of those things considered ... and are we going to say that it was crap? It was done by "sound" and its "flow", and then later sequencers done manually and with tapes, helped develop more of it, into something different, still just as good as before. It was still about the "sound" and its "flow".
 
It's just strange, when you end up reading a Klaus Schulze say that he does not study music, and does not seem to know that chords they are ... because that is not where his interest lies in the music he makes. He simply allows his fingers to move ... !!!
 
Basically, in my estimation, there is a whole segment, or two, of music that is not being taken into consideration, and that does not mean that what Craig wrote is wrong, IT'S NOT, but it is something that would be required if you were going to be a studio musician and be on call to get many studio things done for/by others, or you were to play with an orchestra. However, this has not been the case, or the history of rock music in general.

As I said elsewhere, the cows aren't black.  There are principles for understanding aesthetics.  It's not all subjective no matter how much our lovey-dovey 3rd grade teachers wanted us to think.  Theory simply means that the music is arranged in certain ways (taxonomies) in order for us to understand and discuss things with eachother.  Language is what sets us apart from the monkey's, no?  So it's arranged in order for us to communicate about aesthetic ideas (theoretically).

Different DNA.  Different quantum information (I think our *souls* are basically quantum information and they persist past death). :D:D
 
Edit:  And hundreds of millions of USD.

craigb
 
Leg one - Knowledge of your chosen instrument.
 
You should understand how your instrument makes sound, how to set it up, how to clean and maintain it, what each part does and how to tune it.  You should also know what it's musical range is, how the notes and chords are configured, how to alter the basics (e.g., alternate tunings, capo use, baritone vs. standard, how many strings?, string gauges, slides, tremolos, in-series or out pickups, single coils vs. multiple coils, in phase or out, muting, etc.) as well as correct playing techniques for whichever styles you are interested in.
 
Leg two - Music theory.
 
Here is where you learn what music itself is all about.  From chords, chord progressions, arpeggios, notes, keys, scales, rests, bends, portamento, vibrato, harmonics, modes, octaves, bars, tab and staff.  And on and on and on.  Circles of 5ths and 4ths as well as being able to read music (either staff notation or tab).  Being able to communicate with other musicians (when needed) or playing something already created without hearing it.
 
Leg three - Ear training.
 
This falls into two camps:  Absolute pitch and relative pitch.  The abilities to know what a note is when you hear it and to know what chord is being played when you hear it.  This could be the easiest leg to describe, but the hardest (for some) to become proficient at!
 
Leg four - Song theory.
 
This area includes song structure, verses, choruses, codas, bridges, intros, outros, time signatures, melody, harmony, soloing, song writing, orchestrating, etc.
 
 

 
39 years since I picked up a guitar. My chair still only has one leg, and the paint is peeling off that.

I know my theory inside and out, but funnily enough, I never give it a second thought when I'm composing music or playing guitar. I have written some quite long pieces which are quite harmonically complex (i.e. lots of extended chords, voice leading, modulation etc) but I couldn't tell you what any of those chords are and I don't even know what key they're in. I could find out in a flash, by applying what I know about chords and theory. But the point is that I don't feel any need to - I feel my way around music using my musical instincts. I will oftentimes push notes around on the piano roll until they sound like the right ones. Sometimes I happen upon interesting harmonic ideas purely by chance - but I don't think of this as good luck or cheating in any way. I'm using my musical taste to distinguish good accidents from bad accidents. And I guarantee a substantial number of history's great musical was "happened upon" in this way. 
 
Similary, I don't think about theory when I'm playing the guitar. But in playing an instrument, if you don't want to learn "formally" then it's still a good idea to get the shapes of chords and scales under your fingers if only to get a sense of pattern and of clusters of notes which work together and produce certain feelings. After a while, you can get by without having to memorize entire scale patterns and fingerings - you develop the skill of translating what you hear in your head to your instrument. For instance, if I'm playing a G note and I hear in my head a note that's a fifth higher, I'm not thinking "Fifth higher than G...a D!" My muscle memory has learned over the years to reach for a note "yay higher" and it knows where that note is. I'm sure pianists do the same thing. They hear the distance between two notes and they know how to translate that distance onto the keyboard. 
 
I'm no music teacher and I'd be the last person to give "expert advice" on learning an instrument because I've always done things in my quirky way and I have no idea if that way is good for the majority of people. I will say in general that it's a good idea to get a solid grounding of the basics of chords and scales, but to do so with the understanding that once you've gotten it down pretty well, there's no harm in forgetting about it as you continue your musical journey.