• SONAR
  • First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co. (p.3)
2013/09/07 23:18:52
cparmerlee
mmorgan
I think in the end the market will decide what is useful and helpful. I know the touch stuff in X2 is controversial but I think Cakewalk is and was doing a good thing proceeding with that. 

I hope you are right.  It is clear the market has not embraced metro apps, Windows 8, or the Surface.  That is obvious from the sales numbers.  And it is equally obvious that Microsoft went this wayward direction not based on what customers were demanding, but because they wanted to ape what they perceived Apple doing.
 
The difference with the DAW market is that there is an over-abundance of decent DAW products, so if some go off in a really misguided direction, they will pay the price and the others will learn not to do that.
 
I don't have a problem with incorporating touch where it makes sense.  But trying to build a commercial-grade DAW using the GUI concepts of a postage stamp cell phone doesn't make much sense to me.  I'm not saying that anybody is doing that, but if they are thinking about it, I'd encourage them to talk to some grown-ups before throwing away their whole company.
 
2013/09/08 00:07:44
stickman393
jm24
soundtweaker
I hope Cake is working on a metro style app.



I hope the CW dudes are working on a desktop version.


I can not upvote this enough.
2013/09/08 00:17:06
mmorgan
cparmerlee: You bring up some good points but I would speculate that the adoption of Win 8 is more complex than what you have outlined. I think it's true that MS was losing out in the marketplace to the smartphone 'revolution' but I would speculate that this was because smartphones fulfilled a need to for the average consumer to be able to email, surf the web and surprisingly, call people. All at a favorable price point, in my opinion this cut into what had been a cash cow for MS.
 
Meanwhile, back at the office, there was less of a need to do the upgrade to OS and productivity applications. I work in the IT group for a multi-discipline engineering firm. We haven't even completed the upgrade to Win 7 yet (we're at about 85%) and I'm unsure if the our primary engineering apps even support Win 8. In my opinion it isn't that Win 8 is a misguided direction it is that the market has shifted and the implementation of the markets direction does not match the business goals, The market has gone to consumers, not businesses. This is fundamentally different from the previous upgrade cycle path which was also part of increased capacity in processing power. We are primarily a CAD based company and CAD requires a lot of processing power, certainly equivalent to a DAW and quite possibly more so.
 
As an aside I think the general idea of having the same look and feel across phones and desktops is actually a good one, though whether or not it is functionally optimal is of course up for debate. That said, no I don't want my DAW on my phone. But I might take the above IL Fruity Loop Groove to the beach with me on my Surface (if I had one which I don't).
 
I should note that for my home, project based studio I'm still on Win 7 but that is only because the upgrade to Win 8 would not have been transparent for me due to my back up software (Arcronis). I'm looking at various options right now to get to Win 8 and it precisely because of 'touch'.
 
Anywho, in general I agree that with your point about putting a DAW on a smartphone...for now. The point I was trying to make is that as technology has grown what were once unusable ideas are now part of main stream computer usage that we no longer if think twice about.
 
Regards,
Mike
 
2013/09/08 00:28:38
Paul P
cparmerlee
I hope I never drive across a bridge built by an engineer that used his cell phone to do the structural analysis.



I vaguely remember people saying this about hand-held calculators
 
(based on the probably sensible fear that by using one you lost the ability to have a rough idea of what the answer should look like before the calculator spit out the answer).
 
There really is a revolution going on with major paradigm shifts.  Much as I don't agree with the 'young' way of going about business, I'm also fascinated by watching them at it (I have two daughters 18 and 20) and am forced to admit that they are able to get things done.  Somehow a lot of people skimming the surface is equivalent to fewer people going deep.
 
How much of Cakewalk's customer base is the younger generation ?  From this forum I've been under the impression that the vast majority of Sonar users are not exactly young, so I wonder who Cakewalk is aiming for.
 
2013/09/08 01:00:41
AT
We were bound to hit the point where most people didn't need faster computers and just how much memory do you need to run the os, email and surf the web?  PC have come down in price, but not that much - my last desktop for "office" tasks cost about $350.  And it didn't need Win 8 since I don't plan on buying a touchscreen to do mostly typing.  And for the record, I can do most email/web stuff a lot faster here than on my win 8 tablet.  Maybe it is just how I'm used to doing it.
 
But the money is in tablets/phones now.  Not much ms can do about phones, but the iPad is great for fun functions and win 8 is a step in that direction.  The great thing about my tablet is it will run metro and full strength programs.  It will function as a laptop w/ the detachable keyboard.  Win 8 was silly since there was no way to set it open w/ a desktop instead of metro.  People would have found plenty to complain about but just about everyone complains about that, tho it is only a windows keystroke away.
 
There are three ways I use computers now - to surf/email, to run "office" stuff and to do music.  The tab does 2 out of 3 of those.  In a few years tablets will be faster than your desktop is today.  Then you can run music, but only if there is an external box to hook up for storage and connections and a big screen.  And desktops will still out perform a tablet.
 
@
2013/09/08 01:04:34
MelodicJimmy
You guys sound like a bunch of stuffy old guys.  LOL 
 
So a company that makes music recording software might actually try to make use of the latest technology?  OH NO!!!!!  We just CAN'T have that!!!!  lol! 
 
 
2013/09/08 02:13:05
John
mmorgan
John
I bought it and have tried it, briefly, and it is fun but I need to learn how to use it. 
 
So far I would say IL did a good job.




John, I'm curious if you are using this on a Surface RT or some other Win 8 Touch device. Can you divulge?
 
Thanks,


Well it is top secrete but just for your ears only I use a mouse on duel monitors and they are not touch. I was checking out the tutorial for Grove and it seems to use touch very creatively. Its clearly meant for a touch interface but I had no trouble using the mouse.   
2013/09/08 03:03:46
SteveGriffiths
cparmerlee
cclarry
If Cake does ANYTHING (Roland already is, BTW) with iOS, Metro, or Android
BEFORE they get X3 or an X2b out I'm done with them....end of story...
That's all I'm sayin'....

 
Bit of a blanket statement.  If cake were to bring out a dedicate iOS / Metro / Android controller surface for Sonar I would be a happy puppy.  I know there are 3rd party things out there but dedicated apps tend to be more optimized - the Presonus VSL model is a good example.
 
Cheers
 
Grif
 
 
2013/09/08 07:04:29
FCCfirstclass
I was doing math for electronics class with my trusty slide rule (a very good one made by Post that cost me $30 in 1971) when one quarter full classes at North Seattle Community College cost $75.  It was an expensive tool, but it worked very well.  I was also working full time making $2.50 an hour and paying $75 per month rent. 
 
Then HP came out with their first hand held calculator with a price of $399.  All it did was the four major functions.  Some kids were laughing at it, but the rest of us knew that a major point in time was upon us.  It was made with intergraded circuits, or IC's.  Wow. 
 
My point:   I used my slide rule for another 5 years until TI came out with their own 4 function calc that cost $40 at which point I purchased one.  
 
DAW's will be around for a long time to come.  Apps will continue to be built for mobile platforms.  I don't think that they will ever be as good as a DAW, but who knows what the paradigm will be.  Sonar will be fine if the R&D continues to support the product.    
2013/09/08 12:18:50
cparmerlee
mmorgan
I would speculate that the adoption of Win 8 is more complex than what you have outlined. I think it's true that MS was losing out in the marketplace to the smartphone 'revolution' but I would speculate that this was because smartphones fulfilled a need to for the average consumer to be able to email, surf the web and surprisingly, call people. All at a favorable price point, in my opinion this cut into what had been a cash cow for MS.
 
Meanwhile, back at the office, there was less of a need to do the upgrade to OS and productivity applications. I work in the IT group for a multi-discipline engineering firm. We haven't even completed the upgrade to Win 7 yet (we're at about 85%) and I'm unsure if the our primary engineering apps even support Win 8. In my opinion it isn't that Win 8 is a misguided direction it is that the market has shifted and the implementation of the markets direction does not match the business goals, The market has gone to consumers, not businesses. This is fundamentally different from the previous upgrade cycle path which was also part of increased capacity in processing power. We are primarily a CAD based company and CAD requires a lot of processing power, certainly equivalent to a DAW and quite possibly more so.

I don't question at all the proposition that much of what was previously done seated at a desk can be done (to some degree) in a mobile mode.  I do that all the time.  I have the same emails fed to the desktop and the smart phone.  I certainly check messages away from the desktop, and value the ability to give a quick yes/no response, which is often all that is needed with an email.  But for anything requiring a more involved response, I wait until I have access to the more powerful platform, if waiting is practical.  I do not believe that the average mobile-only user can do an effective job at complex tasks using only that little device.  And I offer Twitter as Exhibit A.  You can find all the snarky one-liners you ever want to see there, but you will have to look long and hard to find anything of real substance.
 
Because the mobile devices have offloaded much of the light duty from the desktops, the desktop sales numbers are down.  That isn't because they have failed to keep up with the latest UI.  It is because they are becoming more specialized -- still being essential for complex tasks, but not so essential for a lot of simple day to day things.  I think Microsoft has fundamentally misread what people want in their desktops and it killing what would otherwise be a stable, profitable (albeit smaller) revenue stream for them.  In my view, it is a horrendous blunder, and Ballmer should have been gone several years ago.  It is the wrong idea, plain and simple.
 
I am not saying that the desktop UI should not continue to evolve.  Of course it should.  But radically switching to a completely foreign concept, giving users no time to evolve into that -- a new "paradigm" that doesn't even make sense in the desktop space, is a colossal mistake, and Microsoft is paying a very dear price for that.  That price was worth paying when moving from DOS command line to Windows GUI.  But Metro is a different deal.  They took a mode of operation that was serving users very well and really wasn't is need of any revolutionary change, and put a gun to the head of their users.  Change everything or else you have no options.  The users have spoken.
 
Microsoft is backing off a little with 8.1, but too little too late, I believe.  Windows 8 is off to the dustbin to join Windows ME and Vista.  Every other OS release for the past 13 years has been an unmitigated disaster -- and "unforced error" to borrow a sports term.  These fools just refuse to learn their lesson.  You only get so many chances.
 
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