• SONAR
  • Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm (p.4)
2013/08/25 16:44:11
swamptooth
@jeff
Because the 8th note is the beat at 60bpm in 6/8 time there should be 60 8th notes in one minute of music. If I'm wrong on this let me know.
2013/08/25 16:45:38
swamptooth
@jeff
Because the 8th note is the beat at 60bpm in 6/8 time there should be 60 8th notes in one minute of music. If I'm wrong on this let me know.
2013/08/25 16:46:25
Jeff Evans
The confusion here is due the the way 6/8 time is felt. It is meant for fast tempos of 2/4 time actually. I would be really be doing two bars of 3/8 time. That is the correct feel for 6/8. NOT 6 eigth notes of 3/4 time.
 
They are quite different. When you look at it this way all the DAW's will have issues with the metronome. Because two beats of 3/8 time is not the same tempo as 3 beats of 2/8 time. That is where the confusion is.
 
2013/08/25 16:51:34
robert_e_bone
@Jeff Evans
 
Quoting you" I could do a piece easily that Bob may be talking about and change the time sig anywhere along the timeline. And the tempo will either remain constant but the metronome will change at the time sig changes or you could go one further and change the tempo as well. I must admit though I am  not sure how it would handle all the 4/4 loops in this scenario though, have not tried that."
 
The tempo must double in Sonar, and it should NOT need to.
 
Bob Bone
 
2013/08/25 17:14:35
swamptooth
well now i'm really confused because i just did 2 project tests - one in studio one and one in sonar...
set both to 6/8 time and 60bpm and inserted a string of 8th notes on a midi track
this is the result...
https://skydrive.live.com...d=5DBE71A770FCC390!330
2013/08/25 17:28:38
Jeff Evans
Ok I can understand your confusion and yes you are right in that tempo does need to change. Example: If you do a single bar of 2/4 time at 60 BPM then you will need two seconds to complete the bar. Now you can divide that 2/4 time up into two lots of 3 eighth notes.
 
In order to keep the timing per bar the same one has to now go up to 90 BPM of 6/8 time sig and you will still fit 6 eigth notes in and they will take the same time. EXCEPT you are feeling it differently now. You are feeling 3 groups of two eigtth notes but what you really want is to feel two groups of 3 eigth notes.
 
The way I would do it would be to select 2/4 time and set the grid up so it is showing eigth note triplets per quarter note. Hence you can insert notes etc and you will get the TRUE feeling for 6/8 time. 6/8 time is meant to be a faster 2/4 thing where you get the feeling of a fast 3/4 feel per beat. (that is how my wife explained it to me and she is a trained classical musician)
 
So yes DAW's get confused about how they are clicking off 6/8 time and I think it is good that this has been brought up. The problem is how the 6 eight notes are interpreted within a 6/8 bar.
 
That little video that was mentioned earlier is actually how 6/8 time is felt. The way to work out the tempo that is required is to feel the 6/8 as two beats of 3/8 and figure out what the 2/4 tempo has to be in order to make it happen.
 
To answer Sharke's question below. A beat is always a quarter note and can be 2 eigth notes or 3eights notes as in the case of 6/8 time. (6/8= 2 beats of 3 eigth notes) You would need some tricky metronome options as mentioned below (now in PT) in order to be able to click this correctly.
2013/08/25 17:33:07
sharke
Is the definition of a beat as a quarter note regardless of signature a requirement of MIDI tempo?
2013/08/25 17:37:24
swamptooth
As i understand it sharke, yes. Look up midi spec on google and most of the documentation points in that direction.
Apparently pro tools has a beat specification in their metronome you can set to eighth notes but i haven't used it.
2013/08/25 17:55:52
sharke
OK so I now understand why Sonar, internally, thinks of beats as quarter notes. But really, the end user shouldn't have to deal with Sonar "internally," they should be interacting with a wrapper which hides internals and presents a more "musical" front end. As far as I can tell there is no clear cut musical definition of a beat when it comes to determining tempo - it's whatever the score says it is. Therefore, I believe Sonar should allow the user to determine what the tempo means. Of course if we're talking about Sonar becoming more musician-friendly then they really ought to update the score editor as well 
2013/08/25 18:02:57
robert_e_bone
Sonar Step Sequencer ONLY supports a meter base of a quarter note.  PERIOD.
 
SO, when I want to record something in 7/8, I need to set it up as 7/4, and then DOUBLE THE TEMPO so that it plays back at the right speed.  This is due to it having the time value of quarter notes, when they SHOULD have been eighth notes.
 
Bob Bone
 
 
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