• SONAR
  • Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm (p.5)
2013/08/25 18:08:06
swamptooth
2/4 time with 8th note triplets is not the same as 6/8. The "beat" in 6/8 is a dotted quarter note, not a triplet in a quarter. I think if youre referring to the feel of triplet s as 6/8 then that's where our misunderstanding was coming from.
http://answers.yahoo.com/...=20110903170545AAuz1Fg
2013/08/25 18:48:19
Jeff Evans
Yes you are right swamptooth sorry for the confusion. I have changed my post above accordingly. 6/8 time can be felt in 2/4 but 3 eigth notes per beat. They can be beamed as a group of three eighth notes.
 
The only way a DAW is going to be able to click out those 3 eight note clicks per beat is if it has some special options for that. Studio One does have a double tempo click feature though which can be useful as well. Tempo stays the same but number of clicks you are hearing doubles. But this still does not help in a 6/8 time sig.
 
This link explains it well too:
http://www.guitarland.com...sFund/Meter/Meter.html
 
One way to get a metronome to literally do anything you want is to use midi as the source of the metronome instead. It does mean using a synth for the purposes of just generating a click. A General midi device is good set for drums using the C#1 clave sound. I did this for many years and it works perfectly. Then you can make up any sort of click track you want. Create patterns in midi and copy them etc.. eg 6/8 time sig and getting three clicks out per beat which would be impossible otherwise. It allows you to do strange things with the click if you wanted to in time sig changes.
 
It does not interfere with the audio or use any CPU resources either. BUT you must be using a DAW that maintains relentless midi timing no matter how hard the audio side of the program is working. It is also preferable for the midi interface to be connected to another port, not the same one your audio interface may be on. eg Serial port as is mine with Unitor 8. Old fashioned yes but timing wise, seriously solid.
2013/08/25 19:47:15
swamptooth
@bob - 
i'm at the point with step sequencer that i just set up the time sig to 7/4 and remembering for that section that each quarter note is actually an eighth note in reality.  that way the measures line up and it's just a slight amount of conversion that i need to do in my head. 
2013/08/25 20:18:49
sharke
Not sure if it's OK to "hijack" this thread with a general musical question, but since the topic is time signatures and the participants here seem to have a brain for this sort of this, I wonder if you might help me to figure out the time signature of a melody I've started sketching out today? I cannot quite wrap my head around it. It came about through all this talk about 6/8 and me experimenting with time sigs and tempos in Sonar. You know the thing...you're just playing around and a tune comes out of it. Well I have the project time sig set to 6/8 and 52bpm, the same as the project which inspired this whole question in the first place. At this point I've just sketched out some basic chords and a melody with rudimentary sounds. You'll notice that there's two parts to the melody. In the first part, my foot wants to tap 6 beats to the bar, but the emphasis is on every second beat. So it can't really be 6/8, can it? Forgetting about the project time sig, does this sound more like 6/4? Or is it bars of 2/4 which come in groups of 3? I'm really confused. 
 
The second part is different, I find myself tapping 4 beats to the bar. Or again, is this 2/4? Would really appreciate some time signature input here. Once again sorry if this is the wrong thread to ask this....maybe I should post in the techniques forum. Sorry about it sounding so rough, there is absolutely no mix at this point...and sorry if the hats at the start confuse, I have no idea why the export included them like that. 

https://soundcloud.com/sharke-1/melody
2013/08/25 20:42:49
Jeff Evans
I am feeling it in 6/4 at 104 BPM, or a two bar phrase in 3/4. It is over 6 beats either way you look at it.
The second section sounds like it could be in 4/4 but have something like a group of 4/4 bars followed by a 2/4 bar etc. I would have to put into my DAW and work it out but that is how I am hearing it.
Nice tune too. Tricky as it rhythmically crosses the bar lines (melody wise) all the time. Look at the timing of the chords to determine the bar break up. It is definitely at 104 BPM though not 52. (that is how I am feeling it anyway)
 
What I like about this too is that you have not been influenced by anything in terms of coming up with the melody and its timing. You have done that first and now you are figuring out the time sig etc to fit. The better way to do it.
2013/08/25 20:54:54
sharke
Jeff Evans
I am feeling it in 6/4 at 104 BPM, or a two bar phrase in 3/4. It is over 6 beats either way you look at it.
The second section sounds like it could be in 4/4 but have something like a group of 4/4 bars followed by a 2/4 bar etc. I would have to put into my DAW and work it out but that is how I am hearing it.
Nice tune too. Tricky as it rhythmically crosses the bar lines (melody wise) all the time. Look at the timing of the chords to determine the bar break up. It is definitely at 104 BPM though not 52. (that is how I am feeling it anyway)




Thanks for the input Jeff. I guess I should really change the project tempo to 104 going forward. I guess this also means I'll have to double the MIDI clips in length. The phrases in the first part are definitely 6 beats long, but what confuses me is how signatures like 6/4 are supposed to "feel." Because I'm feeling the emphasis on every second beat (ONE two THREE four FIVE six etc) but what I've read about 6/4 time is that like 6/8 time, it's felt as two groups of three. So maybe 2/4 would be a better fit? Am I writing a march here? 
 
 
2013/08/25 20:56:15
sharke
Jeff Evans
What I like about this too is that you have not been influenced by anything in terms of coming up with the melody and its timing. You have done that first and now you are figuring out the time sig etc to fit. The better way to do it.




Yeah that's the way I always do it! I have to feel a tune in my head first. Get it down, then sort out the details later!
2013/08/25 21:02:12
robert_e_bone
swamptooth
@bob - 
i'm at the point with step sequencer that i just set up the time sig to 7/4 and remembering for that section that each quarter note is actually an eighth note in reality.  that way the measures line up and it's just a slight amount of conversion that i need to do in my head. 


I want to make sure I understand what you posted.  Can you elaborate on this?  To make 7/4 play as is it was recorded as 7/8 you will have to double the tempo of the song at the point of the 7/4.  Is that what you meant?  (because it IS what I meant).  Just want to make sure we are on the same page.
 
Bob Bone
 
2013/08/25 21:06:58
Jeff Evans
2/4 solves a lot of issues, good idea! It is possible to have something like 3 bars of 4/4 followed by a 2/4 bar. I have seen it all the time. What that does is set up a nice 4/4 thing going on and then the 2/4 bar at the end of it to make it fit etc..
 
Count up the number of beats the B section is taking and then figure out how it needs to be broken down. eg it might 14 beats which is yes 7 bars of 2/4 but it is also 3 bars of 4 followed by a 2/4 bar.
 
The difference here is that the 7 bars of 2/4 will sound like 2/4 bars all the way through whereas the three bars of 4 followed by a 2/4 bar will sound like the tune is slipping back into 4/4 for a moment and then the listener gets fooled because the sequence restarts earlier than it should.
 
It could also be 4 bars of 3/4 followed by a 2/4 bar. But that will sound like it is still in 3 with the 2/4 bar being the link to repeat of that section or the next section. You sort of have to decide that.
 
Fun stuff.
2013/08/25 21:10:05
sharke
Wow I guess the possibilities are endless....
© 2026 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1

Use My Existing Forum Account

Use My Social Media Account