robert_e_bone

swamptooth
@bob - 
i'm at the point with step sequencer that i just set up the time sig to 7/4 and remembering for that section that each quarter note is actually an eighth note in reality.  that way the measures line up and it's just a slight amount of conversion that i need to do in my head. 

I want to make sure I understand what you posted.  Can you elaborate on this?  To make 7/4 play as is it was recorded as 7/8 you will have to double the tempo of the song at the point of the 7/4.  Is that what you meant?  (because it IS what I meant).  Just want to make sure we are on the same page.
 
Bob Bone
 

ok here's an example.  take a new project in sonar and set signature to 6/8 and bpm to 60.  the problem with this is that sonar still thinks a beat is a quarter note.  so, halve the bpms and you get the right tempo, assuming you are defining a beat as an eighth note, and not a dotted quarter note.  
so, because sonar ALWAYS thinks a beat is a quarter note, it's 6/4 at 60 bpms is the "real world" eqivalent as 6/8 at 60bpms with a beat defined as an eighth note (not as a dotted quarter).  so, set the time signature to 7/4 leave the tempo the same and PRETEND a quarter note is an eighth note, which would make an eighth note a sixteenth, etc...
 

Jamstix has the option to sync at half or double the host tempo.

Tom Riggs
Jamstix has the option to sync at half or double the host tempo.

That's actually very good to know, thanks. I've been thinking of making it my next major purchase.

 
Take a look at the following for some insights into why things are done the way they are.  First, there's tempo in MIDI standard file format (from: http://home.roadrunner.com/~jgglatt/tech/midifile.htm):
 
Tempo
 
FF 51 03 tt tt tt
 
Indicates a tempo change. The 3 data bytes of tt tt tt are the tempo in microseconds per quarter note. In other words, the microsecond tempo value tells you how long each one of your sequencer's "quarter notes" should be. For example, if you have the 3 bytes of 07 A1 20, then each quarter note should be 0x07A120 (or 500,000) microseconds long.
So, the MIDI file format expresses tempo as "the amount of time (ie, microseconds) per quarter note".
 
NOTE: If there are no tempo events in a MIDI file, then the tempo is assumed to be 120 BPM
In a format 0 file, the tempo changes are scattered throughout the one MTrk. In format 1, the very first MTrk should consist of only the tempo (and time signature) events so that it could be read by some device capable of generating a "tempo map". It is best not to place MIDI events in this MTrk. In format 2, each MTrk should begin with at least one initial tempo (and time signature) event.
 
And according to the same source, a beat is always based on quarter notes (from: http://home.roadrunner.com/~jgglatt/tech/midifile.htm):
 
BPM
 
Normally, musicians express tempo as "the amount of quarter notes in every minute (ie, time period)". This is the opposite of the way that the MIDI file format expresses it.
 
When musicians refer to a "beat" in terms of tempo, they are referring to a quarter note (ie, a quarter note is always 1 beat when talking about tempo, regardless of the time signature. Yes, it's a bit confusing to non-musicians that the time signature's "beat" may not be the same thing as the tempo's "beat" -- it won't be unless the time signature's beat also happens to be a quarter note. But that's the traditional definition of BPM tempo). To a musician, tempo is therefore always "how many quarter notes happen during every minute". Musicians refer to this measurement as BPM (ie, Beats Per Minute). So a tempo of 100 BPM means that a musician must be able to play 100 steady quarter notes, one right after the other, in one minute. That's how "fast" the "musical tempo" is at 100 BPM. It's very important that you understand the concept of how a musician expresses "musical tempo" (ie, BPM) in order to properly present tempo settings to a musician, and yet be able to relate it to how the MIDI file format expresses tempo.
 
To convert the Tempo Meta-Event's tempo (ie, the 3 bytes that specify the amount of microseconds per quarter note) to BPM:
 
BPM = 60,000,000/(tt tt tt)
 
For example, a tempo of 120 BPM = 07 A1 20 microseconds per quarter note.
 
So why does the MIDI file format use "time per quarter note" instead of "quarter notes per time" to specify its tempo? Well, its easier to specify more precise tempos with the former. With BPM, sometimes you have to deal with fractional tempos (for example, 100.3 BPM) if you want to allow a finer resolution to the tempo. Using microseconds to express tempo offers plenty of resolution.
 
Also, SMPTE is a time-based protocol (ie, it's based upon seconds, minutes, and hours, rather than a musical tempo). Therefore it's easier to relate the MIDI file's tempo to SMPTE timing if you express it as microseconds. Many musical devices now use SMPTE to sync their playback.

dmbaer
 
Normally, musicians express tempo as "the amount of quarter notes in every minute (ie, time period)". This is the opposite of the way that the MIDI file format expresses it.
 
When musicians refer to a "beat" in terms of tempo, they are referring to a quarter note (ie, a quarter note is always 1 beat when talking about tempo, regardless of the time signature. Yes, it's a bit confusing to non-musicians that the time signature's "beat" may not be the same thing as the tempo's "beat" -- it won't be unless the time signature's beat also happens to be a quarter note. But that's the traditional definition of BPM tempo). To a musician, tempo is therefore always "how many quarter notes happen during every minute". Musicians refer to this measurement as BPM (ie, Beats Per Minute). So a tempo of 100 BPM means that a musician must be able to play 100 steady quarter notes, one right after the other, in one minute. That's how "fast" the "musical tempo" is at 100 BPM. It's very important that you understand the concept of how a musician expresses "musical tempo" (ie, BPM) in order to properly present tempo settings to a musician, and yet be able to relate it to how the MIDI file format expresses tempo.

I had seen the roadrunner stuff previously, and I must admit that while it may be true that MIDI always sees tempo in terms of quarter notes, it is not at all clear that musicians always do so. Dozens of references to extracting tempo from metronome markings say that the metronome marking should include the note duration = the metronome number (tocks per minute) to avoid confusion about how it is to be interpreted. Many say that when that note length is missing, it is assumed that the beat is equal to the duration of the number under the slash in the time signature. So a metronome mark of 60 would produce 60 eighth notes in a minute in 6/8 time.
 
http://piano.about.com/od/musicaltermssymbols/ss/introSheetMusic_4.htm
 
http://www2.siba.fi/muste1/index.php?id=102&la=en
 
 
 

OK guys... I'm confused after reading thru these posts.   
 
When you're in 6/8 time, the click is *supposed* to be on 8th notes (not quarters or other subdivisions).
Six eighth note ticks per measure
X2 does exactly this...
It feels like the tempo is doubled... but it hasn't actually changed.
As an example... alternate two bars of 4/4 with two bars of 6/8... at the same tempo.
Play eight notes (acting like a hi-hat or ride part) over the 4/4 section (it may help to think of it as 8/8).
Play eight notes over the 6/8 section.  The tempo doesn't change.  The backbeats (where the snare would hit) certainly change in the 6/8 section.
 
As someone with a drummer's background (long ago), I think the confusion here is that the OP is actually wanting a slow 12/8 feel... where the backbeats are still "felt" as a slow 2 and 4 (with triplet subdivisions).

Jim Roseberry
OK guys... I'm confused after reading thru these posts.   
 
When you're in 6/8 time, the click is *supposed* to be on 8th notes (not quarters or other subdivisions).
Six eighth note ticks per measure
X2 does exactly this...
It feels like the tempo is doubled... but it hasn't actually changed.

I think that is the OP's point. If you interpret the tempo as being set relative to the time signature, the tempo should change when you change the time signature but keep the same tempo measured as beats per minute. Sonar's metronome accents do change, but the overall speed of the section (measured as real time in seconds to play) does not.
 
If a musician were reading a metronome mark as [quarter note indicated]=60, he would interpret it that the piece should be played twice as fast as if he is reading [eighth note indicated]=60. At least he would unless he has adopted the rather strange convention noted in the roadrunner article quoted above that all tempo is always expressed as quarter notes per minute by musicians.
 
Your experiment confirms that Sonar is interpreting your input into the "tempo" box as the number of quarter notes per minute and not as the number of beats per minute as shown in the musical score or followed by Sonar's metronome accent. Sonar recognizes that the note duration of a beat has changed as reflected in the measure marks in the staff view and the metronome accents,  but does not adjust the speed of playback to that beat duration. That inconsistency is the source of the confusion.
 
Since the number you can enter in the tempo box is adjustable in a ridiculously wide range to a resolution of hundredths of the unspecified timebase (apparently a quarter note), some simple math should let you work out a usable tempo in practice.
 

slartabartfast
I had seen the roadrunner stuff previously, and I must admit that while it may be true that MIDI always sees tempo in terms of quarter notes, it is not at all clear that musicians always do so.

No argument from me on that point.  I was simply trying to demonstrate why tempo is quarter-note-based in the context of MIDI.  It goes back to the MIDI standard file format, host clock behavior and probably a bunch of other stuff.  It's easy to see how sequencer/DAW developers might prefer that view of things in preference to the less formal concept where beats are the lower number in the time signature.

dmbaer

slartabartfast
I had seen the roadrunner stuff previously, and I must admit that while it may be true that MIDI always sees tempo in terms of quarter notes, it is not at all clear that musicians always do so.

No argument from me on that point.  I was simply trying to demonstrate why tempo is quarter-note-based in the context of MIDI.  It goes back to the MIDI standard file format, host clock behavior and probably a bunch of other stuff.  It's easy to see how sequencer/DAW developers might prefer that view of things in preference to the less formal concept where beats are the lower number in the time signature.

It would look like it would be a trivial job to set your sequencer tempo input to a timebase of beats per minute and do the math to bring it back to a MIDI quarter note. I wonder if the main problem might be the capability of Sonar to use "groove clips." Adjusting variable speed audio to a shifting tempo if the timebase were also shifting might be more of a problem.

OK guys... I'm confused after reading thru these posts.   
 
When you're in 6/8 time, the click is *supposed* to be on 8th notes (not quarters or other subdivisions).
Six eighth note ticks per measure
X2 does exactly this...
It feels like the tempo is doubled... but it hasn't actually changed.
As an example... alternate two bars of 4/4 with two bars of 6/8... at the same tempo.
Play eight notes (acting like a hi-hat or ride part) over the 4/4 section (it may help to think of it as 8/8).
Play eight notes over the 6/8 section.  The tempo doesn't change.  The backbeats (where the snare would hit) certainly change in the 6/8 section.
 

 
 
Sharke is saying that if the eighth note is the reference note in 6/8 time (and it should be) and if the BPM is 60, in one minute there should be 60 eighth notes;
 
Sonar's metronome plays 120 eighth notes during this time.
 
I was under the impression this was true in all DAWs