Konrad from my experience when using notation to write in swing time the meter is 4/4 and the word swing in the score tells the player to interpret the first 8th as 2 8ths in a triplet and the second 8ths in the pair is only 1 of the triplet 8ths. Only if all three triplets in a beat are played are they written as triplets.
 
It is also perfectly acceptable to write swing using 12/8 and set the beat to a dotted quarter.
 
I have seen it done both ways.
 
I agree it would be nice if Sonar allowed us to see and express the tempo in terms of the current time signature, however they would still need to use the quarter note as the midi and express the tempo internally in terms of the quarter note.
 
Also even if they did do this change time delay plugs would still rely on the midi time code if I understand them correctly. So when making changes to a delay for instance we would still need to do the math to convert our time sig and tempo back to quarter in our heads to correctly modify the effect.
 
 

Thanks, Tom.  I will have to think about what would be the best way for a DAW to implement this, but having to draw 1/8 notes, then right-clicking to change their start times and durations one-by-one is quite annoying.   For now, I get by with extensive and creative copy and paste--although that still involves right-clicking to change the pitch of a note since moving it will smap it back to an 1/8 note slot!
 
People who have cut a lot of country will know that that swing rhythm also shows up in country waltzes (e.g., Tennessee Waltz). Again, a highly out-of-date example, but something everyone who ever swung a guitar in a honkty-tonk will know!

I guess I figured out something for myself, in all of this.
 
For both projects and Step Sequencer, I will construct everything so that I convert everything to double the value - meaning both tempo and meter base.
 
What I mean by this is that since step sequencer cannot deal with eighth-note meter base, I will construct the entire project as if an eigth-note were really a quarter note, and double the tempo throughout the entire project.
 
What that will do for me is allow me to enter all measures with a meter base of a quarter note, but because it will play at twice the speed, it will really be a meter-base of eighth-notes.  In other words, what used to be a quarter note would now be entered as a half-note, and that way all eighth-notes would become quarter notes.
 
In the above construct, what USED to be a single measure of 4/4 would now become two measures of 4/4, with each quarter note being now entered as a half-note, any eighth-notes entered as quarter notes, 16th-notes as 8th-notes, etc.  5/8 would be entered here as 5/4, and due to the  tempo doubling throughout the project, the 5/4 would sound out as the former 5/8 would have, were the tempo not doubled.
 
In this manner, it would eliminate the giant hassle of doubling and subsequent halving of the tempo I used to always have to do, since now it would ALL be done at double-tempo, and only note-value doubling would occur.
 
I have just tried the above approach in sequencing up a Dixie Dregs tune called Night Meets Light, which has a ZILLION meter changes, 4/4, 5/8, 6/8, 7/8 all over the place.
 
Since now I set the tempo to double the real tempo (original is 120, so my new tempo is 240), I never have to go back and adjust the tempo in order to switch between 4/4 and any of the eighth-note meter bases (5/8,6/8,7/8).  This saved me a BUNCH of time, AND everything was quite straight forward in the step sequencing too - I just had to double any note values, which was quite east, since most of the tune's guitar notes are arpeggios of eight-notes.  Since those became quarter notes now, in step sequencer I just create clips of for example 7/4, and leave the number of steps per beat at 1.  Every eight note then is now represented as a quarter note, with 7 per measure, and the sequencing goes very quickly.
 
I hope ANY of the above made sense.  It does to me, even if I cannot explain it.
 
I would, however, trade all of the above for them fixing/adjusting step sequencer to nativel allow an eighth-note meter base.
 
Bob Bone
 

slartabartfast
 
OK, I am pretty ignorant about what a tempo synch device is. If it is an external MIDI controlled unit, then synchronization with a "tempo" sending midi clock or MIDI beat messages at a standard timebase (quarter note) would seem to be a big advantage. A tempo change message could then reset the frequency (decrease the duration) of the MIDI beats, and keep the devices in synch.
 

I was simply talking about any plug-in that needed to sync to host tempo, like a delay where you can set the delay time in absolute terms (non-synced) or host-driven (as in a delay time of one eighth note, however fast the host is playing ectad notes).
 
I've been doing a little digging and found something interesting.  I am not nor have I ever been a plug-in developer, but I always assumed that hosts sent timing notifications to client plug-ins, such as MIDI time clock pings.  Apparently not so.  The client plug-in must request timing information from the host.  Plug-ins like EQs and compressors don't need this information.  In fact the majority of plug-in devices do not.  Synths do for their LFOs and arps, for example.  Delays do.  But I can't think of any other effects besides delays off the top of my head that need host tempo synchronization.  So, making the client that needs such information periodically ask is probably considerably more efficient than having the host bothering all the clients with unwanted interruptions.

Thanks konrad that's an awesome explanation! Love the king even though i listen to him too little. I'll take a listen.

Thanks!

It's been a while since I saw this small little app. It's called "Delay Calculator". I believe it's buried in the FTP of Steinburg or Cubase (somewhere in there). It is meant for calculating delay times before the advent of tempo based delay times. It may prove useful for solving your delay metering problems. It's a long shot though. It's been a long time since I've used it.
 
As far as counting different time signitures goes.
6/8 I would count in twos with each beat as a triplet.
Swing time I would count as 4/4 with triplets. But I would write it as 12/8.
 
What I don't like about Sonar is you can make a faster count in say 4/4 when the tempo is slow so it makes it easier to time properly. I don't like that you can't go the other way. Say your playing a fast 4/4 of about 180 or better. You can't make the count only click on 1 and 3 which to me is a huge PITA.
 
Bottom line, Sonar needs to make improvements here.

I was looking for a time calculator for selecting audio per beat in a project, and came across this link, which has a pretty good write-up on BPM and such:
 
http://www.harmoniccycle.com/hc/music-25-MIDI-BPM-PPQ.htm
 
Bob Bone
 

On a slightly different note, this thread has provided me with a way around a problem I've been having trying to get a blues shuffle to appear properly in the PRV and have the metronome play accordingly.
 
I see a shuffle as 4 sets of three eighth notes with the middle eighth note of each set being a rest (is this the same as swing ?).  I've been using the Smart Loops "6-8 Slow Suffle A" loops in SD3.    For some reason, to get them to appear properly in the PRV, I have to set the tempo to 12/8.  If I set it to 6/8, a 'music' measure of 4 beats gets spread across two measures in the PRV.
 
For the metronome, I have not found a way to get it to click 4 times to a measure, once for each beat (a beat for me is where I tap my foot).  At 12/8, the metronome clicks 12 times per measure.  You can set the metronome to click up to 4 times faster (using Beat Subdivision), but not slower.  Thanks to Jeff Evans's suggestion, I'll just create my own midi click track.
 
The Staff view does a pretty good job of displaying the notes in four 'groups' of hits per measure.
 

If you plan to work the midi metronome and also the audio metronome and either change between them or use them both at once it is important to do the following below.
 
It is good to check and see how well timed the audio and midi metronomes are. They won't necessarily click exactly at the same time. Often the audio metronome will click slightly ahead of the midi metronome. One test is to turn the audio metronome into audio and examine the peaks and compare them to the grid. They should be very close to that. The midi metronome will feed some sort of click sound and you can record that into audio and compare the two and see if there is any timing differences between the two. The midi metronome can appear late sometimes. It will still be a tight flam in drum speak but as a drummer myself it infuriates me a bit and I prefer them to be smack on with each other.
 
You can also listen to the two clicks (audio and midi) pan them left right and listen for the amount of flam that is going on. Most DAW's will allow a timing change in how the midi system is playing regard to the audio system. (early or same or late) You can try adjusting this until the flam stops and the two clicks become very tight. Remember you have to factor in here the latency of the click sound generator too.
 
You can adjust individual tracks of course ie your midi click track can play early or late but it is good to get the systems aligned first then you can leave your midi tracks set to 0 ms delay or advance and still get rock solid tight timing.