2013/08/06 04:27:41
Danny Danzi
cparmerlee
I'm not sure this thread was really about the career of professional mastering engineer versus DIY-ers trying to achieve a commercially competitive sound in the basement.  But it is all good information to know.  I surmise from the discussion that the job of professional mastering can roughly be divided into two parts (*): defect correction, and sound "contouring/maximizing".  Danny made a strong argument for the profession with regard to defect correction.  The other part, I think, might map very well to your analogy.  I mean, once one person made a hit with Auto-Tune, everybody had to do that.  I realize auto-tune wouldn't come at the mastering stage, but my point is that there are fashions in the sound people want to hear, and maybe that drives some MEs the same way picture studios are driven to the tried-and-true $300M action thriller.
 
Speaking of defect elimination, does anybody have a tool that can get rid of cicadas?    This year hasn't been bad, but last year, recording outdoor concerts in the evening was futile.
 
====
 
* The world consists of two kinds of people: Those who insist on dividing everything into two sets and those who don't.  Count me as a bifurcationist.



No, you're right...it wasn't meant to be that at all. The thread started with a basic question. As the thread got deeper and deeper, though everyone is entitled to their own opinons and ways of doing things, it started to become a bit misleading. When you do this stuff every day and watch people having a discussion about it while trying to use the same intimidation of intelligence that people use in books to make something way harder or "dark art" than it needs to be....it's time for someone to step in and share a bit of what they AREN'T talking about. I'd never bash a person that shares an opinion and respect the DYI guys out there. However, there are quite a few that come to learn and if they are being corrupted, it's nice to give them the other side of the story from someone that actually does this freakin' procedure that isn't flying a desk as a banker during the day. :)
 
If you read Bob Katz book about mastering....you'd know about mastering as well as the history and aesthetics. If you read MY book about mastering, you'd know HOW to master. The difference is if he showed you how, you'd be his competition. I'd show you how because I really could give a rats @ss if you become my competition. I'll just find something else to do and give it all to you. :) But I'd need to write that book first. :-Þ
 
-Danny
2013/08/06 04:54:18
Danny Danzi
brconflict: Most books don't show you how, they take your money feeding your need to buy more books. Interviews teach you 0.....name dropping gives you 0 credibility. I could drop 34 names of famous people I worked with while showing you proof...none of it would mean a thing. So you don't have to play that card with me bro. :)
 
No one named you. If I covered a topic you started or covered...others did too. No reason to assume. I do this for a living. I came into a deep discussion about mastering that started with a basic question. I felt some of it was misleading so I spoke my mind like I hope you would if people were talking about something you do for a living. There are enough people misled on this forum. I try to stop that when I see it. Trust me, my forum participation has been less and less. I'm leaving the place to people that know-it-all to corrupt the place further.
 
Us seeing eye to eye: We don't need to...you could care less what I think I'm sure and I'm cool with that. However, we actually are on the same page. You are just looking at it from one point of view where *I* look at it differently. Let me show you what I mean.
 
There are 3 mixes that get passed around. One, I won't even waste time on. It's the one you get from hobby guys or studio guys that aren't quite up to snuff with how things work. They try to give you something that is mastered before it's even mixed. You know the ones....these don't even count to me. I'm not bashing them...no one is perfect including me. But these types of mixes aren't what an ME enjoys because these guys infringe on the ME's territory all too often. They should just do the job themselves. Anyway...
 
1. Great mix: (this is what *I* meant) The master is not drastically different from the mix no matter who does it. Why? Because real engineers know how to mix and real mastering guys know when to make the "polish" call when they hear a good mix. You mention fighting with your kick drum and others mentioned bass etc. They don't have those problems. You don't get a mix from a dude that has a clue that needs to be high passed drastically at 45 Hz because the rumble is so insane it sounds like a tuba under water. That's what I hear on the mixes people post up on forums. You don't get over-compression unless the song calls for it as an effect and the producer made that call or someone knows how to use a compressor. You don't fight with doing surgery on a master. A great mix = a master that doesn't need much other than polishing here and there and of course, the whole album suite thing. What I mean is, you won't go ballistic with eq and extreme alterations. All the stuff most of the people post on forums and music sites are not what you would get from a major label or a real engineer that knows his/her stuff in terms on the eq use on the mix.
 
Personal pick-up note here: I personally don't want my mix coming back to me sounding way different, do you? Bob Katz mastered my last album. I mastered it myself before I sent it to him. When I got his back and compared, I didn't notice much difference and liked my master a little better in some ways. I went with his because I paid for it and he did all the coding etc....but I could have easily used mine. The reason being? The mixing was so good (imo), no one could have jacked up that album unless they didn't know what they were doing. The mixes of that album were fine just the way they were without any mastering. It didn't need extensive mastering and that's the point I'm trying to make. There are times when you perform surgery...and there are times when you enhance/polish as an ME. I prefer not to perform surgery unless I have to. A mix that's bad should be remixed unless it's gone and can't be fixed or someone is under the gun or they just don't want to fix it. All acceptable reasons. But I prefer to tell them to fix the mix if it's possible. Now back to your regularly scheduled sermon...
 
2. Balanced mixes: (This is where you and I agree) A balanced mix is just that. It's luke-warm. It doesn't kick you in the face with bass....it doesn't have all the mids it may need, it doesn't have highs that sparkle. And...in this situation the mix is soo well balanced, you can literally enhance it like a ME is supposed to do. This is where the producer fine tunes everything with the ME. This is where 40-50 Hz may get pushed....this is where the mids will improve/round-out the tonality and increase sound size and have a bit more girth....this is where the right highs add sparkle. The mix engineer/producer have left all this open so you and the producer can fine tune things the right way while mastering the entire album. This is a mastering engineer's dream. Especially when you are given a mix like this and there is no producer to where YOU create the curve and are responsible for the sound. THIS is real mastering and this is where the mastered version will sound different than the mix. This is also what you get from a major label 90% of the time unless they have a different agenda.
 
These mixes are thin so we have the power to add in the right low end and low mids. The mix is not congested with mids so we can add the correct mid mids and high mids. There are no sibs or harsh highs...so we can add them correctly and cut those that are just adding noise. You don't have that luxury when working with hobby guys. A pro that masters a bad mix polished a turd. There's nothing wrong with that...but I've heard as many before and after's where the after was worse than the before, so a lot of this stuff will always be subjective. Just because something is louder, right away people think it's better. I invite them to grab some of these dudes that provide before and after mixes....and lower the loud one to the other and compare. You'll be quite astonished at how sometimes, the "after" actually sounds worse. UAD has that problem. They try to sell their plugs based on extreme volume or eq differences...lol...that's a topic for another time though. :)
 
I've always said "when someone mixes something, there was a reason for them to export. They liked that mix. If that mix comes back sounding drastically different, it better be because they were told to do it to the extreme." If the mix sucked and was improved, sure....that's a plus and that's how you can tell a real pro mastering job. BUT.....the point is, a mix is not supposed to be drastically mastered to the point of not sounding like what was exported unless you receive specific instructions to do so.
 
As for loudness stuff, yes I know all about it and how it works. I've walked away from more jobs than I care to tell you about. I don't need the money that bad to contribute to the demise of fidelity. I master as loud as I feel something should be, or the client can go elsewhere. MY name has to go on this album too. As soon as you lose your snare drum crack and kick snap, you've lost. There are ways to go loud while keeping dynamics. I do it all the time. But there is a difference between loud vs. degraded audio. I never take on any of those jobs, though they WOULD be simple enough to make money from.
 
See man, I do this first and foremost for the love of music and to make a difference for the better for people. It's not just for the money though my time and experience are definitely worth something. I share enough on here for free to compensate. :) I'm happy to be in the position to decline jobs on a weekly basis and I've worked hard enough to have created those choices for myself.
 
Not directed at anyone in particular: You guys should master in any way you see fit using whatever tools you choose. I just gave the opinion of someone that does this every day that read this thread and felt some of it was wrong. Just remember, it doesn't have to be a dark art or something that is so technical, it loses you. The right knowledge is key and I try to give you all just that whenever I can. :)
 
-Danny
2013/08/06 05:15:52
Danny Danzi
gswitz
Thanks Danny. Could you explain more about the dc offset and what you are doing there?


Yeah, it's very simple and not that big oif a deal most times. It's just one of those "principal" things you do. Basicly, when you ramp up your volume, limit, eq extensively, massive low end, you can pick up DC offsets. Most times they are so low, you don't even have to worry about them. Like a thousandth of a %. But if you start to see them really getting up there, it's good to remove them because if they get too out of control, they can affect the audio as well as even blow speakers. But again....it's really rare that you'd ramp up that much to where you'd need to worry. Sonar has a DC offset removal while recording that works pretty great. But when you start mastering, it's inevitable that you will pick a little up...so you'll need to remove it again.
 
The whole thing with DC's for me is...Ludwig never has them, neither will I. LOL! However, sometimes you're left with .001% which to me...is nothing to worry about. That doesn't happen to me often, but it's a joke to worry about being that low. So I start each job removing them. As I master and things come up a little at a time, I may end up with a .012% DC offset. Wave Lab or Adobe Audition 3 removes it for me. However, Wave Lab does it non-destructively (meaning it doesn't alter the left/right sides) at the final mastering stage where AA3 will literally raise volume to the point of clipping or it will offset your left/right side volumes. AA3 works best at the beginning and after the mastering procedure. Anything after the post mastering procedure and it fails. Post meaning....post limiter/covert sample rate/dither. Wave Lab sorts it though and I believe Sound Forge does as well. It's not a big deal though G, honest. I just remove it as it can add to anomalies within the audio and well....if another ME looks at my work, I do like it when my numbers are impressive. The numbers aren't easy to achieve, that's for sure. :)
 
-Danny
2013/08/06 08:09:07
michaelhanson
Please Danny, not less and less....more. I have personally learned so much from your "4 pages" of explanations. I am sure that I fall into your weekend hobbiest category in part one, but I enjoy the crud out of learning is stuff and every time you share this wealth of experience, my experience is a little further down the road to where I understand more of what you are saying.

I now get a kick out of the guys that think Mastering means pulling down the slider on the Limiter and squashing the life out of a song. That used to be me. As a result of what I have learned from you over the last 2 years, I now spend the majority of my time getting the mix correct. Then if I do a little polish, it is Mastering with a little "m".

The whole process of lowering the peaks with an audio editor is fascinating. I remember a video you did a while back on that subject and it was an eye opener for me. I hope to one day have an audio editor and try out that technique.

Cheers.
2013/08/06 09:45:15
brconflict
Danny, are you suggesting that because (and I've mentioned this in other threads) this isn't what pays my bills, that I'm merely a part-timer? And you're suggesting that a predominant amount of my experience and knowledge is from books? And third, I had to at least show you some element of working connections I have in the industry because you had initially discounted me (albeit not naming names) and my opinions from the start as either misleading, inexperienced, or simply incorrect. If it's your prerogative to maintain your clout or to discount others' experience, you're welcome to it. I'll stand back and just watch next time (EDIT: Meaning I will just stay out of the conversation if I'm not helping).
 
I will add this. Yes, we both agree on the same results from different angles. I don't think that's a bad thing, either. I'm just going to say that we do make money Mastering, and if our customers are happy and coming back or bringing friends, then there must be something we're doing right.
2013/08/06 11:15:24
brconflict
Agreed Wavelab does remove DC offsets without much worry. I've recently completed a Surf compilation, where two of the songs handed to me were badly fraught with DC offset in one channel. I suspected they were mixed by the same mixer, but I don't know. One of them I simply sent back to the artist and had them get it fixed. The other Wavelab was used, and with an ever-so-slight adjustment (for stereo image) in Waves S1, I got what the song needed, and we were on our way. 
2013/08/06 11:55:32
konradh
I just do things whatever crappy way I can and call it my style.  Kind of like Dylan's singing.
2013/08/06 12:12:58
John
What is going on above is not all that helpful. Danny, you don't need to say another word regarding your worth here. You have a great track record. You know that and I know that. 
 
Brconflic please don't take what is said in this thread as being personal or aimed at you. 
 
All I see is a clash of egos. That will get us nowhere. You both have good and useful things to say that is on topic. The rest is meaningless. Stick to that and you can't go wrong.
 
I am by nature blunt and to the point. There is no need for anyone to prove anything. Ones words will do that for them. 
 
 
 
 
2013/08/06 13:26:47
cparmerlee
konradh
I just do things whatever crappy way I can and call it my style.  Kind of like DYlan's singing.


A lot of truth there.  Worked for Neil Young, Phyllis Diller, Red Skelton, Pablo Picasso, Foster Brooks, Paul Lynde and thousands of other artists that didn't follow the mob.
 
I can't believe I just compared Picasso to Foster Brooks.
2013/08/06 13:40:51
cparmerlee
Is there any general advice about DC offset?  I had always assumed that if I imported a WAV and removed the offsets, then it was good to go -- that no further processing could introduce offsets.  It seems that assumption is a bad one.
 
If that is the case, then is there any reason why we should NOT remove DC offsets at every step of the process, or at least make sure to do that when we do the final stereo mix?  There really isn't any loss of fidelity by removing the offsets too frequently is there?
 
Other than Process - Apply Effect - Remove DC  Offset, is there any tool in SONAR that does this?
 
Is there any tool in SONAR that tells us how much offset there is?
 
Ideally it would be great to just drop a VST on the master bus right before the limiter to eliminate that issue automatically.  Is there any such VST?
 
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