• SONAR
  • Touch screen versus control surface (p.2)
2013/08/04 06:21:38
Loptec
I think different input methods are nice for different things. I'd never replace my control surface with a touch screen. No matter how far they'll take the touch-technology you'll always have to look where you put your fingers on the screen.
 
With a control surface you just know where the fader is (or can feel your way to it) without looking and get a better feeling for what you're doing with it. That feeling you'll never get from touching a screen.
 
Touch screens are awesome though for other things.. Just as the mouse and keyboard also are great in their own ways.
2013/08/04 07:37:22
gswitz
What Loptec says, I agree with. There is a real advantage to a physical device (especially if feedback starts!!). I have mixed several concerts now using my computer, but I've had a physical device between me and the mains with a fader I could pull down in each case. My compressor, for instance, with an output nob I can twist to turn it down really fast. Some times with touch, I have to touch it twice to gain control over it (maybe the program isn't sure what I want to control at first and gives me zoom control when I want the fader? I don't know). For live, I've used a mouse for precision and because my laptop doesn't have touch.
 
I suppose if you want to use touch to mix a live show with Sonar, you might want a special mode that presumes you want control of certain things...
 
I'll say too that I'm not sure how I'd do a show with Sonar the same as I do using TotalMix from RME. TotalMix allows me to set up a monitor mix, a main mix, and then to audition anything I want through the headphones. Best of all it has a button Trim. This is how it works...
Submix 1 - Mains
- track 1 at -20
- track 2 at -20
 
Submix 2 - Monitors
- track 1 at -25
- track 2 at -22
 
Click the trim button and now, when I move the faders for track 1 and two it moves the faders relatively on all submixes where the fader isn't at 0. This means I have the ability to boost the level of the lead guitar in the monitor and the mains at the same time with a single fader move. Or boost the lead singer... or reduce the bass...
 
I don't have to do this all at once. I can tweak a specific mix... but once the mixes are dialed in, I can make changes to all the mixes at once with the movement of a single fader.
 
I don't know how I would do something like this in Sonar. I guess, I would set up sends on all the different tracks to go to multiple mixes post fader. Then, if I want to change just the mix, I adjust the send. And if I want to adjust the level in all the mixes I use the volume fader. But I can tell you this would not do it for me for a live gig. I wouldn't be able to handle work with those tiny send pots to adjust level, and if touch swirled one of those pots around too fast it could be disastrous.
2013/08/04 07:49:55
Beepster
I've been (and don't lynch me here) Cubase 7 Elements. Seems to come bundled with its own touchscreen app which to me... would be the only way I'd use a TS in the studio. I'd toss it on tablet and simply use it to control record/transport related things while tracking. I know there are probably ways to do this with Sonar but it seems confusing to me and I think to do exactly what I'm talking about requires a third party app. I may be wrong but the impression I get is that you are essentially cramming the entire program onto the touchscreen whether it be a screen on your desk or on a tablet. I don't need or want that.
 
If there isn't an effective b patch released my upgrade money will probably go toward C7E instead. Not that I wouldn't use Sonar still because Elements is quite limited and there are tons of things in Sonar I still want to use but man... watching the vids on Cubase, that is some nice looking software.
2013/08/04 08:38:29
mmorgan
I'm not currently using 'touch' as it would require an upgrade to W8 and my backup software makes it a pain to do the upgrade. But I am planning an upgrade in 2014 and I am doing it primarily because I want ot take advantage of touch.
 
I think Jim Roseberry has it exactly right when he speaks of the OS APIs getting increasingly more robust as they evolve over time. I believe this will equate to greater sensitivity and higher accuracy rates. I'm very interested to see what happens over time. The one potential downside to touch that I see is multi-platform for those DAWs which are multi-platform. I think this may be why X2 is kind of leading the pack as far as touch implementation.
 
None of this is an attack on CS implementations, if I currently had one I'm sure I'd be happy with what it could do. But right now I am stuck with ACT for mapping fuctions to my M-Audio Keystation and I don't care for that per se. I looked into the VS-700 but Roland seems to have not been very responsive to their user base and the move to X2 - TBH on not 100% sure what the status is now but 6 months ago there were some seriously unhappy campers on that topic. If I drop a couple grand for a CS I certainly feel that it should work and what I'm getting is that the VS-700 works, but it is a 'mostly works'.
 
One thing I won't miss at all using touch vs CS and that is a dirty pan-pot...
 
Regards,
2013/08/04 10:50:29
cparmerlee
mmorgan
I'm not currently using 'touch' as it would require an upgrade to W8



Is that true?  I had not heard that.  The touch screens I have seen have a separate USB line that carries "mouse" information.  I assumed this would work on any modern Windows release.
 
I have W8 on a notebook and can't stand the thing.  I love W7.
2013/08/04 10:53:46
chuckebaby
I use a simple vs 20 and a oxygen 49 as 2 control surfaces and im quite happy navigating around sonar.
it makes things a lot easier for panning and fader control.
2013/08/04 13:59:51
mmorgan
cparmerlee
mmorgan
I'm not currently using 'touch' as it would require an upgrade to W8



Is that true?  I had not heard that.  The touch screens I have seen have a separate USB line that carries "mouse" information.  I assumed this would work on any modern Windows release.
 
I have W8 on a notebook and can't stand the thing.  I love W7.




My understanding is that the full touch API is W8, although there is a partial touch API implemented on W7.
 
If it's any consolation I love W7 also, just possibly my favorite OS evah.
 
Regards,
2013/08/04 14:25:24
gswitz
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows7/products/features/touch
 
Windows has been increasing touch functionality over time. For Windows 7, there is a fair amount of two finger touch control.
 
On windows 8, my kid and I can both draw with all our fingers at the same time on the same screen. It's loads of fun... finger painting digitally with no mess. :-)
 
For most touch needs, two fingers are sufficient, but it would not do for managing an entire console. You will want to be able to twist one pot while sliding a fader. The only thing I do using more than two on screen controls at a time is when me and a friend are both making adjustments to the console view at the same time.
2013/08/04 14:42:25
konradh
I agree that touch is the wave of the future, but the challenge for me would be the positioning.  Most people don't want to look down at the table all the time, but if they are always holding their arms up at the level of a screen, they get very tired.  We need a little more ergonomic research.
2013/08/04 16:51:40
jm24
Yo Konradh:  Fur shure   one-size-fits-all  does not look good on most of us.
 
The general fallacy is the new tool will replace the not-new tool.  Sometimes it gets close: most cars sold in the US have auto transmissions.  But ALL still have levers to select what the transmission is supposed to do.
 
Best human technology so far: paper and pencil.     Everything else is based upon these basics.
 
Mouses, alpha-keyboard, touch pads, touch screens, "piano" keyboards, control surfaces, voice control, microphones, speakers, midi guitars,....  And variations on all of these (ie multi-button mouse)
 
Some of these devices are just INPUT.   Some are just output.  Some are Input/output devices (control surfaces, touch screens).
 
Touch screen:
Great use: a remote touch screen for transport, fader adjustment,...
And:  small screen on desk for matrix, session drummer,...
For general mixing: not so much.
 
Some stuff works great with voice control.  Not most things.
 
"Real" faders are great for all the reason mentioned by others.
 
But I cannot conceive of EVER not using a mouse and alpha-keyboard. Paper and pencil.
 
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