John
Danny that could have been said back when Sonar came out. Many liked Pro Audio and wanted it to continue. I wonder how things would be if it had.  

We can only wonder. I have not directing any animosity towards X users. That is not and was not my intention. I just think that I am one of a group that does not care to go down another software learning road and I detest screensets, smart tools, dropping of context sensitive right click menus and on and on.
Fwiw, I think Cake had already reached a fork in the road and decided to go off on a tangent instead. Yes I know they still call it (X versions) Sonar Producer but I don't think of it that way any longer. It is a new product and should have been presented as such. But that's my opinion.
 

dubdisciple
pianodano, semantics aside, whether we are talking about 8.53, X1 or X2a, under the model that Adobe has introduced updates for previopus versions would cease and  you just get the normal bug fixes, you just get them spread out a little more similar to the weekly adobe flash or acrobat reader never ending updates.  Sounds much better in theory than actual practice.  For those of us that have a stable working version, constant updates can be a pain.  A prime example is those employing the CUDA hack for premiere.  Every time we get one of these minor bug fixes we have to reset things in premiere again.
 
You are also ignoring the fact that under the Adobe model there is no option to simply stop if you are satisfied with what you have. The fee is not to maintain stability of that series.  That's going to happen or not happen anyway and Adobe is going to abandon versions and features just like they always have. Imagine if you hate X3 and find X2 stable enough for your needs but Cakewalk tells you that you must keep paying a monthly fee in order to use X2 despite the fact they are no longer developing it?  That is a real and legitimate concern.  There are people now still using X1 because they don't find X2 stable enough.  They are not getting any new cool things for X1 but they are not be charged to stand pat either.

 I do not think Cakewalk would stoop as low as you guy say Adobe has. We have all paid for a license to permanently use Sonar - for as long as we can maintain a machine that runs whatever os we have the software for- whichever version you purchased. Cakewalk has always been bleeding edge but I don't think for a minute that they would break their contractual obligations.

I understand Danny and if you noticed my post to you have been conversational not confrontational. 
 
I could have had that same view. Its not a hard one to acquire. But I have always liked learning things, new things. One reason I had Logic then Cubase and so on. I am not bothered by a learning curve.  You should have seen me when I first started out. I had no clue what any of this was all about. Now I have basic skills and know what I want to do. I know that any software I choose will do much the same as any other. I just need to know its way of doing things. I didn't find the change from Sonar to X1 hard at all. Now and again I will forget something or find something about X2 a bit troublesome but I have had that same experience with all software. From word processing to image editing.  I still manage and I don't expect software to be smarter then me.  I do expect to meet it on its own terms. 
 
I do hope you can see a way to if not like X2 at least tolerate it. 
 
 

i personally wouldn't subscribe if cake switched to that model. most likely i would just stick with the last version that didn't require subscription. i also don't like the idea of "renting" software with the unknowns of what will happen when i "stop paying my bill". i have so many other things pulling at my budget the last thing i need is another additional monthly, quarterly, yearly fee. it's bad enough when i forget each year my website is due then BAM the autopayment hits my account man i hate that. i love cakewalks software and for little as i even use sonar i have still tried to faithfully upgrade to each release. there have been a couple year i didn't even do one project that year but i still did the upgrade when they offered it for $79 or $99. admins/developers, if you read this know that some of us love your product so much we will upgrade if we feel the price point is reasonable enough. i love all the new plugs and features you add. i do wish there were better patch support for known issues, like someone referred to linux that releases patches when & where needed.
 
just my 2 cents, probably only worth one cent

This has nothing to do with "fans of X1", it is simply not economic for a company of CW size to continue to invest in the bug fixes for prior versions.
 

pianodano
Sure, I get that 8.5 is phased out. Never to be re-released. I understand that. But what does that have to do with those users that would gladly pay a annual subscription fee that would be applied  towards continued maintanence of that series ?
 
I guess X1 fans just don't think that Cakewalk has probably lost a group (who really knows how large) of long suffering users that have annually paid for a "upgrade" simply in the hopes of having bugs in their existing version zapped and have a dislike of the X1 methodology.

Mystic38
This has nothing to do with "fans of X1", it is simply not economic for a company of CW size to continue to invest in the bug fixes for prior versions. 

 
I'm glad you don't manage the company. :-)
 
I remember the first time I used a desk top computer application. Some guy sold my boss a WANG the size of a refrigerator.
 
The applications barely worked. As the sales guy was leaving he introduced us to the idea of upgrading to a future software version as the solution for all the stuff we were sold that didn't work.
 
I still remember what I thought that day as he left our building:
 
"Theif"
 
In my opinion, software marketers have two choices...  commit to the same rules every other business operates with or continue to be regarded as hacksters, confidence men, and or worse.
 
I'd love to pay for bug fixes to SONAR 8.5 Classic Edition but the guys who made their living preparing that package are exercising their escape clause and have bailed on it so it is no longer an option.
 
The fact that this is a fact doesn't make it right.
 
I remember when Cakewalk sold us Pro Audio 8. We all got a letter from Greg where he said he would make it right and when Pro Audio 9 came out it actually worked and all the PA8 customers were given PA9 as a replacement because PA8 was sold before it worked. Thanks Greg, that meant a lot to me back then... it was the right thing to do. I bought 12 subsequent upgrades because I had faith in Cakewalk.
 
Then something bad happened.
 
I have begun to suspect that desktop computing will be a thing of the past before any of this "friction" (that's an economics term) between suppliers and paying customers is accorded the respect it deserves.
 
Here is an example; Cakewalk's no returns and no resale policy is simply illegal in the sovereign State of Florida.
 
Who do these software companies think they are fooling?
 
I suspect the marketers are going to try to stretch the fiasco out until they manage to retire and bail on the entire scenario.
 
 
 
It is a two way street. If I pay you money... I have the right to a pre defined set of expectations, but some how the software companies have learned to presume that they can take money with out any responsibility other than to them selves.
 
 
The few operations in the software industry that defy that norm and operate within the boundaries of standard business practice are stand outs and I appreciate that they are working extra hard to do what they know is right.
 
 
Any of you soft ware guys that are reading this... you have a choice... it's not really a screw them or get screwed world... that's just a bad habit that a lot of your soft ware peers have made seem normal.
 
I'm hoping for a change for the good.
 
I got money.
 
Cakewalk used to represent, to me, a road map to excellence. 
 
I'm thinking about buying SONAR X3 the day it comes out just cause it seems like we have to keep the cash flowing and maybe some day, some one at Cakewalk will have the Chutzpah to shake up the operation and set the sights on simple and good instead of "Content Club", "cheap", and "mediocre". 
 
 
 
all the best,
mike
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

mike,
 
just wondering, would you subscribe to a monthly or yearly subscription? from reading your post it seems you kind of have the same mindset i do about it but you don't come right out and say it. i personally mostly like what came out with x2. i don't have all kinds of cash to plunk down on plugs so when cake releases new versions with new plugs that i find useful a $99 once a year upgrade to support cake and get new features is worth it to me. however that doesn't mean i want to be locked down to an automatic upgrade, i do like having freedom of choice too.

 
I would be very happy to deal with honesty.
 
If someone wanted to be honest about what they were going to fix and they told me how much it was going to cost I'd feel as if I had met someone that I would want to partner with.
 
Absolutely!
 
 
 
 
That's not my impression of what Adobe is doing... and so my initial answer about the Adobe subscription reflects that impression.
 
 
Thanks for asking.
 
all the best,
mike

Mystic38
This has nothing to do with "fans of X1", it is simply not economic for a company of CW size to continue to invest in the bug fixes for prior versions.
 

pianodano
Sure, I get that 8.5 is phased out. Never to be re-released. I understand that. But what does that have to do with those users that would gladly pay a annual subscription fee that would be applied  towards continued maintanence of that series ?
 
I guess X1 fans just don't think that Cakewalk has probably lost a group (who really knows how large) of long suffering users that have annually paid for a "upgrade" simply in the hopes of having bugs in their existing version zapped and have a dislike of the X1 methodology.

Well that is a pee poor way to run a business and I am very sorry that our culture has learned to accept such low expectations. I am also very tired of continually reading and hearing that used as an reason to excuse software programmers from playing by the same rules that ALL other business have to operate under - excepting maybe doctors.
 
Here's another example in addition to Mike's. I run a cabinetmaking operation and I build a brand new version of a kitchen every couple weeks. Complex work. There's not a whole lot of money in that work either. But you could bet the ranch that if I installed a new kitchen and 6 months or 2 years later my customers found discrepancies in the work- I would be absolutely expected to fix any and all issues - without any charge whatsoever. I won't even get into what would happen if bugs were found in the cnc saw software.
 
Here you have a case where a class of highly demanding (in the sense that some of us stress this stuff to the max) Sonar users are volunteering to assist in defraying the cost of bug fixes and evidently a portion of other users object. What ?? And what does it matter to you anyhow. It's our money. You can keep using whatever you like. Kind of sorta perfectly illustrates the people that really have Cakewalk's best interest at heart.
 
It seems that really small companies like mine are held to a much higher standard than a firm like Cakewalk. That makes no sense at all.
 
 
edited for clarity

They can't run in every direction at once. The demand just isn't there.

I find it interesting how many cake users are computer experts by day.

And I think it is awesome that Mike will buy software to support the team he believes in.

I think that the best work will rise to the top. I'm an impatient optimist.