Well, I am an old guy, AND an old Sonar user, from way back in the Twelve Tone days.
 
I think there are new sorts of engineers and musicians these days using all of the DAW software out there, and many are new to everything, like when Disco and then Punk and then Big Hair all reared their ugly heads.
 
There was a huge base of real console engineers, and musicians that predated loops, and as the DAW software got into more mainstream use, the demographics shifted to include a gigantic bunch of folks who do not know anything about how "flanging" came into existence, and all of that sort of thing.
 
We be DINOSAURS, I fear!  I see nothing but mammals scurrying about.  :)
 
Bob Bone

Jeff Evans
Some of the stuff for example that was mentioned concerning things that are not in Studio One are correct but then some of it is incorrect too.

Which ones? I asked you about clip lock and fader grouping but you didn't answer. I know it's possible to use third-party MIDI plugins by taking an extra step of creating two tracks but that's different from saying the daw comes with MIDI effects. I don't mind being corrected but without knowing why I'm wrong I can't correct myself.

Yup - I could use the knowledge too - thanks.
 
Bob Bone

jbow
For those who may know... what about Reaper? It looks like a good start, a good business model. Is it good or does it have a good potential to become good? I am not currently on a track to change but curious minds want to know...
 
Curious... thanks.
 
J

My only issue with Reaper is that it works like it was designed by a committee of thousands.  I had to go into the menu system and cut out all the stuff that I don't use and reorganize the menu selections.  

Jeff Evans
Studio One has many features, Most people just dont know about them. I use a lot of external midi stuff and it is very good for this. (as well as for audio too of course)
 
It is the only program that has been written from the ground up in recent years.
Best external midi timing. Does not get influenced by what the audio side of the program is doing.
PRV is fine for all midi work I have done so far. I play it in live so Step Sequencer is not important. For that use FL Studio it has the best step sequencer in the world.
Song Templates are available. All you need.
Clip lock is possible by simply selecting Dont Follow in the Inspector. Clips will never move no matter what you do.
Clip gain as per Pro Tools 10 and 11. Once you use this you will never go back.
It can jump midi tracks all on the fly while looping and recording. Sonar cannot do that.
Automation is excellent. You can also automate effects bypass.
K System metering built in.
One of the finest gapless audio engines available. You can do so much while it is playing it is not funny.
You can change the tempo of the whole arrangement by just changing the tempo.
Best time stretching algorithms
Finest track layers and comping available
A level of stability and reliability many DAW's cannot boast. I have never had a crash in years and I use it every day all day and under severe pressure at times. Most DAW's would fall over. Basically it is bulletproof. No workarounds needed and you don't have to tip toe around it either.
I have got a midi panic button on my midi interface, solves that issue.
Very nice instruments and audio effects
Some say it sounds better than most DAW's (I am not convinced of this though as I can manage a good sound from any DAW I use)
It plays nicely with nearly any VST you want to install and run.
You can group anything in either mixer or arrange page.
Great export options.
They have not wasted their time on a half arsed score editor.
Separate and very cool mastering page.
Mac version available. The new Mac Pro is amazing. All you need is the Apollo interface with the UAD stuff inside and you are on the air seriously. Studio one will run like the starship Enterprise on that baby!
Most important thing yet, you will never waste a moment getting the program or your computer to work. You will produce the most music possible using this DAW.
 
It is a killer program and when the next version comes out it will be even more so.
 

I've got to agree.  I downloaded the demo in order to finish a project and I bought the Pro version in a little over a week.  I will still use SONAR for certain clients but I find working in S1 more to my liking because of the console view that shows more than two sends and it's lean and mean GUI design.  I'd like to have Track templates but most of the reason I use SONAR track templates is to work around my dislike about how mono inputs show up in the drop down menus.

Mod Bod

Jeff Evans
Studio One has many features, Most people just dont know about them. I use a lot of external midi stuff and it is very good for this. (as well as for audio too of course)
 
It is the only program that has been written from the ground up in recent years.
Best external midi timing. Does not get influenced by what the audio side of the program is doing.
PRV is fine for all midi work I have done so far. I play it in live so Step Sequencer is not important. For that use FL Studio it has the best step sequencer in the world.
Song Templates are available. All you need.
Clip lock is possible by simply selecting Dont Follow in the Inspector. Clips will never move no matter what you do.
Clip gain as per Pro Tools 10 and 11. Once you use this you will never go back.
It can jump midi tracks all on the fly while looping and recording. Sonar cannot do that.
Automation is excellent. You can also automate effects bypass.
K System metering built in.
One of the finest gapless audio engines available. You can do so much while it is playing it is not funny.
You can change the tempo of the whole arrangement by just changing the tempo.
Best time stretching algorithms
Finest track layers and comping available
A level of stability and reliability many DAW's cannot boast. I have never had a crash in years and I use it every day all day and under severe pressure at times. Most DAW's would fall over. Basically it is bulletproof. No workarounds needed and you don't have to tip toe around it either.
I have got a midi panic button on my midi interface, solves that issue.
Very nice instruments and audio effects
Some say it sounds better than most DAW's (I am not convinced of this though as I can manage a good sound from any DAW I use)
It plays nicely with nearly any VST you want to install and run.
You can group anything in either mixer or arrange page.
Great export options.
They have not wasted their time on a half arsed score editor.
Separate and very cool mastering page.
Mac version available. The new Mac Pro is amazing. All you need is the Apollo interface with the UAD stuff inside and you are on the air seriously. Studio one will run like the starship Enterprise on that baby!
Most important thing yet, you will never waste a moment getting the program or your computer to work. You will produce the most music possible using this DAW.
 
It is a killer program and when the next version comes out it will be even more so.
 

I've got to agree.  I downloaded the demo in order to finish a project and I bought the Pro version in a little over a week.  I will still use SONAR for certain clients but I find working in S1 more to my liking because of the console view that shows more than two sends and it's lean and mean GUI design.  I'd like to have Track templates but most of the reason I use SONAR track templates is to work around my dislike about how mono inputs show up in the drop down menus.

Thanks! I take your opinions seriously, you never seem to hedge or mess around. (that is a compliment).
With all the other things I need, like better mics, I will wait to see what the next "thing" from Cakewalk brings but if it isn't my thing, I guess 399 isn't that much.
J

I am not trying to talk anoyone out of staying with what Sonar will have to offer either. I think it is very exciting what they are thinking up for us with all of these programs and their newer versions coming out. It can open doors in creative ideas for us. But I also agree that basic functionality should be there and be solid and it certainly is with Studio One.
 
I am leaning towards the Mac Pro now running both Studio One and Logic. (Apollo with UAD via thunderbolt.) Imagine the CPU and DSP headroom you would have in a system like that. That would be interesting. Mixbus also runs on the Mac. In fact it is the most powerful on that platform as you can run your DAW and Mixbus at the same time and send all the stuff to and from it in real time during your mix. Very good. No exporting of stems/tracks required or anything like that.
 
I am into the Raven (Mac only too) smaller control surface like the MTi (stereo). That controlling Logic (and hopefully Studio One) might be the way of the future. A recent SOS review says it is really very good to use and rather amazing. Well priced as well.  We have to look at what touch is going to offer with the newer and larger touch screens talking directly to our DAW's.
 
 

SuperG
 
 
You can plug a USB audio device, a hard drive, a memory stick, none of them need drivers in Windows, 'It's all built in'. 'It just works'. (Hey, this Apple speak is easy..)

It's easy because you are ignoring half of the actual statement once again - yes you can plug and play in Windows. But if you want to obtain acceptable performance in your DAW you will need ASIO drivers. Windows' own drivers are crap. Apples DEFAULT drivers are rock solid and offer top notch performance.
 
Opinions are opinions and as long as one doesn't distort the facts to discredit other people's opinion and label it Apple Speak as you do, I'm fine with it. 
 
 

Rain

SuperG
 
 
You can plug a USB audio device, a hard drive, a memory stick, none of them need drivers in Windows, 'It's all built in'. 'It just works'. (Hey, this Apple speak is easy..)

It's easy because you are ignoring half of the actual statement once again - yes you can plug and play in Windows. But if you want to obtain acceptable performance in your DAW you will need ASIO drivers. Windows' own drivers are crap. Apples DEFAULT drivers are rock solid and offer top notch performance.
 
Opinions are opinions and as long as one doesn't distort the facts to discredit other people's opinion and label it Apple Speak as you do, I'm fine with it. 
 
 

Good point: as long as one doesn't distort the facts. Exactly what I've been avoiding here - in fact I've been clarifying them.
 
Apple speak is the distortion one gives when claiming a superiority that just plain doesn't exist.
 
Ex.:

• Top notch performance
• Rock solid
• acceptable performance

 
The words are useless without quantification/qualification. Fluff. Rock solid?
 
Mac's go belly up all the time.
 
Things don't exactly drop off the map overnight in Windows land with an OS upgrade. There are systems available within windows OS that have been there since the Windows 3.1 that are still supported. COM, DDS, Vfw, and so on. One of the is the old wave interface (MME), you've got your DirectSound, you got you WDM Kernel Streaming which supports WaveRT, and of course you've got vendor supplied ASIO drivers.
 
For Daw use, you can use either a vendors ASIO or the WDM/KS audio driver channels, either will allow you to set a real time latency. Although, Sonar allows it, the old MME drivers are still there for applications which do not support the real-time interfaces (and probably don't need to). This of course, all works using only the motherboard mounted, oft-discounted (heh) , Realtek audio chip. The poor Realtek doesn't come with ASIO drivers, but with WDM/KS WaveRT, it isn't absolutely needed. You can set your sample latencies in Sonar for WDM/KS WaveRT the same as you do for ASIO. [Unqualified observation] - It just works.
 
Of course, I've just got a new MOTU ultralite and wahoo!, you can speak to it, either old MME wave, real-time WDM, or ASIO too. You pick your poison.
 
 
So you see, Windows has a really nice driver architecture, which has manged to flourish in form from 16 bits, on to 32, and finally 64 bit processing. This can't be said for apple products. They screwed themselves in the old days by limiting themselves to 24 bit addressing, and using the upper 8 bits to pass data - a big baddy no-no that made moving to a true 32 bit architecture withe the PPC a monstrous effort. Of course, they chucked it all when moving to Wintel architecture. They were smart to use BSD as an operating system (with an Apple GUI glued on), probably would've taken them forever to build one up from scratch. Core Audio/Core Midi wasn't some revolutionary new Apple technology, it was a solution Apple was forced to build. Since Apple adopted BSD, and Unix didn't have much in the way of real-time audio driver architecture (in some cases any audio driver at all...), Apple had to make one. Same for midi - 'no choice pal...'
 
The point of this post is, Apple has as many warts and skeletons in its closet as Microsoft does, arguably more. If you go off tooting about Apple vs Wintel, and how great Mac's are, well, there's way much more to the story....
 

Rain

SuperG
 
 
You can plug a USB audio device, a hard drive, a memory stick, none of them need drivers in Windows, 'It's all built in'. 'It just works'. (Hey, this Apple speak is easy..)

It's easy because you are ignoring half of the actual statement once again - yes you can plug and play in Windows. But if you want to obtain acceptable performance in your DAW you will need ASIO drivers. Windows' own drivers are crap. Apples DEFAULT drivers are rock solid and offer top notch performance.
 
Opinions are opinions and as long as one doesn't distort the facts to discredit other people's opinion and label it Apple Speak as you do, I'm fine with it. 
 
 

Good point: as long as one doesn't distort the facts. Exactly what I've been avoiding here - in fact I've been clarifying them.
 
Apple speak is the distortion one gives when claiming a superiority that just plain doesn't exist.
 
Ex.:

• Top notch performance
• Rock solid
• acceptable performance

 
The words are useless without quantification/qualification. Fluff. Rock solid?
 
Mac's go belly up all the time.
 
Things don't exactly drop off the map overnight in Windows land with an OS upgrade. There are systems available within windows OS that have been there since the Windows 3.1 that are still supported. COM, DDS, Vfw, and so on. One of the is the old wave interface (MME), you've got your DirectSound, you got you WDM Kernel Streaming which supports WaveRT, and of course you've got vendor supplied ASIO drivers.
 
For Daw use, you can use either a vendors ASIO or the WDM/KS audio driver channels, either will allow you to set a real time latency. Although, Sonar allows it, the old MME drivers are still there for applications which do not support the real-time interfaces (and probably don't need to). This of course, all works using only the motherboard mounted, oft-discounted (heh) , Realtek audio chip. The poor Realtek doesn't come with ASIO drivers, but with WDM/KS WaveRT, it isn't absolutely needed. You can set your sample latencies in Sonar for WDM/KS WaveRT the same as you do for ASIO. [Unqualified observation] - It just works.
 
Of course, I've just got a new MOTU ultralite and wahoo!, you can speak to it, either old MME wave, real-time WDM, or ASIO too. You pick your poison.
 
 
So you see, Windows has a really nice driver architecture, which has manged to flourish in form from 16 bits, on to 32, and finally 64 bit processing. This can't be said for apple products. They screwed themselves in the old days by limiting themselves to 24 bit addressing, and using the upper 8 bits to pass data - a big baddy no-no that made moving to a true 32 bit architecture withe the PPC a monstrous effort. Of course, they chucked it all when moving to Wintel architecture. They were smart to use BSD as an operating system (with an Apple GUI glued on), probably would've taken them forever to build one up from scratch. Core Audio/Core Midi wasn't some revolutionary new Apple technology, it was a solution Apple was forced to build. Since Apple adopted BSD, and Unix didn't have much in the way of real-time audio driver architecture (in some cases any audio driver at all...), Apple had to make one. Same for midi - 'no choice pal...'
 
The point of this post is, Apple has as many warts and skeletons in its closet as Microsoft does, arguably more. If you go off tooting about Apple vs Wintel, and how great Mac's are, well, there's way much more to the story....