vlab
Cubase ? 
 
You guys must be joking ... no audio bouncing, no decent freezing, mixer routing is primitive, 
so many useless tracks ... so many opened windows... so much scrolling around .. ;)
last version I tried (was it 6.5), I could not even SOLO a FX track and be able to hear the FX without having all other tracks feeding that FX soloed as well. What???
 
ASIO performance is laaame compared to Cakewalk, tried, tested ... you get MUCH more realtime power out of Sonar with VSTi's. that a fact. 
 
There are of course good stuff about Cubase, but jumping ship definitely is not worth it IMHO, upgrades are expensive, AND are also mostly bugfixes, just as CW. It, s a matter of choosing your set of bugs really... :)
 
Sorry to go against the general anger seen around here ... Sonar X2a has it's problem yes... I still can make a living out of it, as I did with X1, 8.5.3 and so on .. 
Cakewalk has always been kinda slow to get things right ... 
 
If you have bugs, report them, work around it. finish your song... move on!!!!! make music... it's never been this easy and accessible... 
 
Have a good day guys ! 
 
Cheers! 
 
V

Each to their own vlab. Fair enough.
 
I got to the point that I couldn't finish a song. In fact it was embarrassing showing a client tracks jumping between lanes, white screen of death, drop outs and the like. I've made more progress in 6 weeks using Cubase with the learning curve than I managed to do with X2a in 6 months.
 
Some of the points you make - I wouldn't agree with based on my own experience to date. You can bounce tracks - its called export - same vibe different name Freeze is there - works as you would expect. Haven't found any limitations at all with routing - its at least on par with Sonar from what I can see. As far as I can see on my rig ASIO performance simply destoys Sonar. Same project - same plugs. Less scrolling as I can see more tracks.
 
I do agree - windows flying around! Skylight rules the day on that front! :)

stevec
This discussion prompted me to check out some of the C7 videos, and I have to say, the videos are very nice.  C7 has some slick features for sure, and seems well thought out overall (though obviously not in every respect).
 
But after perusing their forums and reading the many complaints just about the new console view, or about the lack of bounce/freeze, I quickly realised that it's not all sunshine and roses.    As is the case here, it seems to very much depend on how you use the product and how tolerant you are about certain aspects.  But there were enough statements along the lines of "I'm using the previous version until they work out these @#$% bugs" or "why the @#$% did they change it when it was working just fine?" or "I just don't see anything worthwhile upgrading", to make it clear that the grass is the same color, it's just in a different yard.  
 

The mixer debate is Steibergs Skylight moment lol. Talk about polarising the user community!! I like it but I didnt use 6.5 which apparently a lot of people liked. I really miss not being able to mix in the track view. Love that about Sonar.

So, here's what I think I know:
 
Patches have been released after 4+ months, even in August.
 
New version have been release in March (S2,3?), and in September, October, December.
 
I will expect a patch until I get the notice to buy now and get the next one free.
 
I will probably buy the upgrade even though I hate the X series, just in case something reasonable has occurred. And the new bundled bits and pieces are always worth the stoopidly low upgrade price.

Very true JM...

I don't think of it as buying the software though... To me it's paying for continued development which includes giving, adding and improving. I'm more than happy to pay the very low cost of this and I have been continuously thrilled through 8.5.3....... The X series has mostly been very hostile to me in many ways, and the PC modules (of course they're made only for Sonar.... I don't care as it's all I normally expect to need. These plugins are better than anything else I own and have me locked into Sonar still hoping for some relief to my frustrations. Editing has become a nightmare of fidgeting to get the views/zooms I want. I got them fast in 8.5.3...

So I'm sure to buy the next update whenever it's released..

Bet please, Cakewalk... Get us some fixes soon! Better than free stuff or more features!

Thanks...
Keni

vlab
Cubase ? 
 
You guys must be joking ... no audio bouncing, no decent freezing, mixer routing is primitive, 
so many useless tracks ... so many opened windows... so much scrolling around .. ;)
last version I tried (was it 6.5), I could not even SOLO a FX track and be able to hear the FX without having all other tracks feeding that FX soloed as well. What???
 
ASIO performance is laaame compared to Cakewalk, tried, tested ... you get MUCH more realtime power out of Sonar with VSTi's. that a fact. 
 
There are of course good stuff about Cubase, but jumping ship definitely is not worth it IMHO, upgrades are expensive, AND are also mostly bugfixes, just as CW. It, s a matter of choosing your set of bugs really... :)
 
Sorry to go against the general anger seen around here ... Sonar X2a has it's problem yes... I still can make a living out of it, as I did with X1, 8.5.3 and so on .. 
Cakewalk has always been kinda slow to get things right ... 
 
If you have bugs, report them, work around it. finish your song... move on!!!!! make music... it's never been this easy and accessible... 
 
Have a good day guys ! 
 
Cheers! 
 
V

 
On my system ASIO perfromance is superior to Sonar X2 so apparently it is not "a fact" to the contrary.  There are several things that Sonar does much better but if you use a lot of MIDI, notation and large sample libraries Cubase is far superior to Sonar.  YMMV

dorism
 

Each to their own vlab. Fair enough.
 
I got to the point that I couldn't finish a song. In fact it was embarrassing showing a client tracks jumping between lanes, white screen of death, drop outs and the like. I've made more progress in 6 weeks using Cubase with the learning curve than I managed to do with X2a in 6 months.
 
Some of the points you make - I wouldn't agree with based on my own experience to date. You can bounce tracks - its called export - same vibe different name Freeze is there - works as you would expect. Haven't found any limitations at all with routing - its at least on par with Sonar from what I can see. As far as I can see on my rig ASIO performance simply destoys Sonar. Same project - same plugs. Less scrolling as I can see more tracks.
 
I do agree - windows flying around! Skylight rules the day on that front! :)

In any ways, there is room on the market for more than 1 great DAW, both Cubase and Sonar being so for sure... (my goal is not to start a war here for sure !)
 
as for bouncing, yes of course, you can export, but if you have a gain pad+routing+FX+level further on the signal path, you have to manually deactivate those for every track you bounce... not convenient, as I love to bounce my FX send tracks wet, and chop them, reverse them, mangle them, re-process them as audio tracks... it's simply way too cumbersome in Cubase IMHO (though possible but not fun!)
and AFAIK, there is no way to "export" a FX track, soloed, wet. (at least in 6.5)
and IIRC, you can't edit the WAV of a freezed audio track (though this might have changed)
 
as for performance benchmarks, I did a session running as much instances of Kontakt5 and Omnisphere and Stylus as possible ... on the same computer, same hardware etc... Cubase had CPU spikes all over the place and crashed after being loaded up to 6gb of RAM, (6.5.1), audio was glitchy as the VST performance meter was going all over the place,
saving and reloading made the project crash after a few secs of playback, I felt there was some kind of bottleneck in the ASIO driver, that really cripped Cubase's performance. 
 
Sonar had the same amount of instances at first, playing the same stuff ... CPU was steady in the 30% range...I then loaded up twice as many samples (up to 12gb of Kontakt samples, and Omnisphere granular stuff)... Sonar still held up, the difference was beyond obvious on our system. Hence my initial remark regarding performance difference. (though I agree that this might differ from one computer to another, just as Sonar's stability)
 
We tried this process over a few machines (all HP Z400 Xeon workstations, Maudio 2496)), and we had the same results... but honestly, I'm glad you and others have different results, that only proves that DAW performance really can vary from one computer to another, and that the DAW itself cannot be the culprit of all problems.
 
Most of all, I'm glad we can have this subjective discussion respecfully... :)
 
Cheers!
 
V

Heh,
 
My chihuaha jumped on my keyboard the other day and added over 300 empty audio tracks to a project. It played fine, although I think sonar was smart enough to know those tracks were empty....

vlab

dorism
 

Each to their own vlab. Fair enough.
 
I got to the point that I couldn't finish a song. In fact it was embarrassing showing a client tracks jumping between lanes, white screen of death, drop outs and the like. I've made more progress in 6 weeks using Cubase with the learning curve than I managed to do with X2a in 6 months.
 
Some of the points you make - I wouldn't agree with based on my own experience to date. You can bounce tracks - its called export - same vibe different name Freeze is there - works as you would expect. Haven't found any limitations at all with routing - its at least on par with Sonar from what I can see. As far as I can see on my rig ASIO performance simply destoys Sonar. Same project - same plugs. Less scrolling as I can see more tracks.
 
I do agree - windows flying around! Skylight rules the day on that front! :)

 
as for bouncing, yes of course, you can export, but if you have a gain pad+routing+FX+level further on the signal path, you have to manually deactivate those for every track you bounce... not convenient, as I love to bounce my FX send tracks wet, and chop them, reverse them, mangle them, re-process them as audio tracks... it's simply way too cumbersome in Cubase IMHO (though possible but not fun!)
and AFAIK, there is no way to "export" a FX track, soloed, wet. (at least in 6.5)
and IIRC, you can't edit the WAV of a freezed audio track (though this might have changed)
 
 

Actually, I find the process easier in C7 (I use fx groups, orginally set-up thru the 'vst connections' thingee - easy to bounce/redner). And in C7, when you want to bounce a VST, you don't have to do that annoying pick the audio-and midi tracks thing...you just select the output - C7 gets that it's a vst, and incorporates the midi track (duh). And midi fx are...wait for it... just fx - you don't have to configure them as synths, tempo-based, add separate midi tracks, etc.,etc. VST performance is, overall, way smoother (esp. with Fxpansion products and Nebula), and for some reason, there's little to no play-back latency...it's kinda like PDC on steroids - which you can adjust...per track. I could go on...

jimusic
@burkek & Jackdied - I'm hoping you will get the same deal/package I did.
Not only did I get Q7 for $130 less than elsewhere, but it also included HALion 4 full version for FREE as well!

 
I actually bought my Cubase 7 for $300 from a user on KVRaudio. Came with Padshop Pro and the expansion pack. Otherwise, Q7 by itself retails for $499 in Canada. There is a package on eBay for around $350 but there is some question as to being able to authorize outside of the US. I dunno. I also license NI Komplete Ultimate 9 so don't really need another sampler. Even on the hardware side, I have 2 x AKAI S5000's fully maxed out.
 
What I do like about Steinberg is their participation in their user forums. You know, the way Cakewalk used to. Q7 does apparently have some fairly major bugs, but at least Steinberg has regular maintenance updates.
 
I'm wondering if these companies might move to a subscription model - like Adobe, so that they have a regular income and subscribers then have access to updated versions and bonuses periodically throughout the subscription period. At the rate of speed that things are changing in this evolving consumer market, nothing would surprise me.
 
KEv

 

jimusic
 
...
One thing I noticed that, [although not that big a deal], was how my plugins were all organized automatically into their respective categories, ie: EQs, Limiters, etc.
 
With Sonar, I spent close to an hour or so organizing them all.
 
With Q7 - done! And without me even knowing it. Very cool!
 

Plug-in layout choose "X2 Producer Layouts"