Drivers aside nothing that comes on the MB is going to out perform a high quality well made audio interface. No argument is goiny to change that fact.

The point for me isn't about whether the onboard chip will 'outperform' it's the point that many folk here will make someone who is making use of the onboard chip for whatever reason out to be some kind of 2nd rate citizen, and get all Billy Big balls about what they've got.

The fact is, like or not, it works, works well and you can do much with just Sonar and yer onboard card....blanket saying get a 'pro' card is just elitist bull, some folk just can't run to the extra $200 upwards especially after just shelling out for the software and plenty of folk love being able to do stuff on their mobile computers without carrying a rake of outboard gear.

HD Audio works with Sonar! The tech guy just came on and said he made sure it did.

Pass it on.

I notice you revert to the older SB argument here so bringing into the now with all you have read here can you not concede that the margin between the latest CURRENT onboard chips and 'pro' interfaces implemented in many cases 4-5 years ago has gotten a whole lot smaller?

The specifications alone suggest otherwise...I'd rather save up fer a good pre because the audio interface surpassed the human ear by a long way some time ago.

One would think so but I don't have any use for a single input or out. Its possible that some of the pro audio gear is technically the same as an SB though I for one don't put much stock in that notion. Specs aside the proof is in the use and I did do a trial of the onboard sound chip a HD Realtek chip. Needless to say it was not up to par. Nor was it even able to work with Sonar in any kind of useful way. I have it set for all the windows sounds and such. It is not my interface for any serious audio apps. It does work well for what its meant to do. That is not system critical audio streaming of multiple audio streams in and out. Sorry it just isn't going to cut it there.

Nor was it even able to work with Sonar in any kind of useful way.

Define useful here?

ORIGINAL: John
That is not system critical audio streaming of multiple audio streams in and out. Sorry it just isn't going to cut it there.

Then perhaps you NEED a high-end card, I can't remember ever having a critical need to stream multiple audio streams, but I do remember YOU categorically telling me I NEEDED a high-end card....which actually I didn't.

Then perhaps you NEED a high-end card, I can't remember ever having a critical need to stream multiple audio streams, but I do remember YOU telling me I NEEDED a high-end card....which actually I didn't.

You don't ever record more then one thing at a time? Then good for you. I do and wouldn't want anything less. That is why I do have a pro interface. But not for just that it is also low latency. I don't think you can get a SB or an onboard chip to have low latency yet. I don't recall telling anything on what you should get but what I meant if I did was something that you would be happy with for the app you have. An M-Audio 24-96 is not going to break anyone's bank yet will perform much better in this situation then any SB or Realtek.

An M-Audio 24-96 is not going to break anyone's bank yet will perform much better in this situation then any SB or Realtek.

I'm an arranger more than anything, I don't record anything apart from bouncing vsti's and I get sent stems for other stuff. I've supplied a few pro studios with 24 bit stems and normally I get praise for the quality (which I put down to Sonar).

Thanks for the head up on the 2496 buy my lappy ain't got a pci slot...

Besides the audio quality ain't gonna be any better than the 888 as has already been covered and you'd still need a pre anyway and my latency is fine for the midi tracking I do thank you.

But I do appreciate the suggestion, so much nicer than a directive...

ORIGINAL: John

Chris you make a lot of good points but the problem is most of us have had at some point an SB that we used years ago. It was OK then for the simple things we may have done then now many need low latency multiple in and outs with decent pres. An SB or onboard chip just wont cut it. Drivers aside nothing that comes on the MB is going to out perform a high quality well made audio interface. No argument is goiny to change that fact.

We have a well known poster here that has a real animosity toward SBs and in most cases he is right. However I and a few others have defended the SB cards that can in fact work in a well setup machine but they will never give the same performance that a pro audio interface can and does give. Nor can any of these deal with various sampling rates or bit depths that many of us routinely use.

BTW ASIO does not use WDM at all. You can run an ASIO dirver on Win 98 before WDM came out. Cubase used it with Cubase VST. It was their way to bypass the MME driver of that time and allow for multiple ins and outs. MME would not support multiple ins and outs. Also it was not a low latency driver model

John, WDM is a driver model - it is what the kernel of Windows uses to connect to the hardware - this is really not a difficult thing to understand (I have repeated it countless times in this thread alone). ASIO is an API that connects the Audio Application (Sonar, Reason, Acid, Nuendo, Cubase) to that driver. WDM drivers are the only thing that passes data to the device itself - therefore ASIO has something to do with WDM of course - they are the API that allows the application to talk to them, the difference is that the ASIO API accesses the WDM driver directly, bypassing system components such as the Port Driver, the Mini Port driver, the Kmixer (XP) which in turn gives you the lower latency. ASIO does provide more than that, enhanced clock support, multiple channels (which was the initial reason for Steinberg to create this ASIO). Before Microsoft introduced WDM, there was NT4 and VxD driver models, so back in the days before device vendors had WDM drivers ASIO would have been talking directly to one of these driver formats. BTW WDM was introduced in Windows 98, a lot of WDM drivers are available for that OS.

"It was their way to bypass the MME driver of that time"

MME is NOT a driver - it is an API. Please learn how an audio stack works. ASIO was a replacement API for MME (and Directsound) - however the vendor has to supply an ASIO API for their hardware (still do). There is only one 'driver' - and different ways of accessing that driver. Unfortunately the terms are misused and creates confusion, I.E "ASIO Driver" - a term used often but incorrect as ASIO is not a driver model.

"Drivers aside nothing that comes on the MB is going to out perform a high quality well made audio interface"

Well that is what you are supposed to think... but all in all the guts are mostly the same... pull an interface apart and tell me what you see for chips inside. Notice how most manufactures do not show you this info on their website? How would you feel now if you were to find the same components that are found in a onboard card or Sound Blaster?

Cirrus Logic A/D converter found on most Sound Blast X-Fi cards....
http://www.cirrus.com/en/products/pro/detail/P1083.html

AKM (Asahi Kasei) A/D converter found on the Presonus Firebox...
http://www.akm.com/prodfolder-adc.asp?p=AK5384

Interesting the Cirrus logic chip has better dynamic range, higher sample rate (same word length) - going by the comments made in this thread.... well looks like the Sound Blaster has better components that a Presonus Firebox. and I find this quote from the AKM page interesting...

"The AK5367A is a high-performance 24-bit, 96kHz sampling ADC for consumer audio and digital recording applications." See that word 'Consumer'... what?? Consumer grade components in a 'Pro Interface' - this is the same chip that would find in devices like DVD recorders and other digital recorders... that does not make it a bad component though. A/D converters have been around a lot longer than one may think... they have been R&D'ed to death. Hard to find one that is far superior to another.

FYI - here is a great image showing how an Audio Stack works in XP....
http://ask.creative.com/wwimages/Vista/audio_vista_whitepaper_im.jpg

And an Audio Stack in Windows Vista.
http://ask.creative.com/wwimages/Vista/audio_vista_whitepaper_im2.jpg

This will give you a better idea of how APIs (Windows Audio Session API, ASIO, Directsound, MME) talk to the Kernel Mode (WDM - although Microsoft wants to get rid of WDM audio drivers in favor of UAA) driver.

Chris

ORIGINAL: John

Then perhaps you NEED a high-end card, I can't remember ever having a critical need to stream multiple audio streams, but I do remember YOU telling me I NEEDED a high-end card....which actually I didn't.

You don't ever record more then one thing at a time? Then good for you. I do and wouldn't want anything less. That is why I do have a pro interface. But not for just that it is also low latency. I don't think you can get a SB or an onboard chip to have low latency yet. I don't recall telling anything on what you should get but what I meant if I did was something that you would be happy with for the app you have. An M-Audio 24-96 is not going to break anyone's bank yet will perform much better in this situation then any SB or Realtek.

"I don't think you can get a SB or an onboard chip to have low latency yet. "

5ms on a X-Fi with Directsound... even lower using the supplied ASIO API. If Directsound wasn't emulated in Vista (as it has to be mixed in the audio stack before going to the driver) I am sure it could get even lower using that API. People beat that word around all the time "latency... blah blah blah... latency... blah blah blah... latency... blah blah blah... latency... blah blah blah..." But what they don't know is what steps are taking on the inside of the audio subsystem to get that.

informative.

What, an 8 year old thread?
 
if you say so

google is the best one.