X2 is the modernst Daw  imo, but not the most stable and not at least  recourse hungry
compared to  Q-base and co.To go more in that direction would fit complete for CW.
 

I am content with the features of X2; I was content with the features of 8.5 and I prefer SONAR to the other DAWs that I have tried. I just don't want to have to pay for a bunch of new features that I don't need just to get some old bugs fixed, even if they are bugs that I myself rarely, if ever encounter. Cakewalk admits there are old bugs that need fixing. The existing bugs should be fixed and released as a free update and then charge to upgrade to a new version that has new features. It would be nice to know whether or not we will be forced to pay an upgrade fee to get any of those bugs fixed. However, I won't pressure Roland/Cakewalk about it, I will just wait to see what they do and then make the necessary decisions regarding how I will spend my money.

brconflict

HeatherHaze
 
If X3 has some really appealing new features, how many of us wouldn't jump on that, especially knowing any niggles in X2a have been fixed?  Given that, I'm not sure it makes sense for them to release an X2b.

Marketing guys eat this up. Sure, it makes sense to bypass X2b. If the features in X3 aren't enough to get people to upgrade, the fixes might do the trick. This is an age-old trick that happens to work.

If Cakewalk were asking $50,000 for a product release upgrade, as Oracle and many others do, I think that would be a very strong point.  But it seems to me the Sonar releases are a very good value, and easily within the range that any really serious user should be willing -- even eager -- to pay. 
 
This is not a mass market product like Microsoft Office.  There is a relatively narrow community and Steinberg, Cakewalk, etc are not charities.  Users have to support the product financially or it simply will no longer exist.  So I really don't look upon this as a marketing "trick" or even "marketing" per se.  It is just business reality.

Keni

Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]

mike_mccue
 
"FWIW, this kind of speculation has been happening for over a decade."
 
Yes, very much so. Each year we have waited only to learn that we are going to have to pay for the bug fixes.
 
Indeed, there was a claim by Cakewalk's CTO that X1 featured fixes for 10 year old bugs in it.
 
I don't need to speculate, I paid for 10 upgrades and I got some bugs fixed by being patient.
 
When does X3 come out?

There's more to every release than just some bug fixes. Narrowing it down to just that is pretty misleading and unfair. All new versions of products have fixes for old things... that's not exactly unique to SONAR. There was a lot of other work and tons of new features that went into the last 10 versions. Surely you can't ignore that?

 
Wow! Ryan too!
 
Thanks for chiming in Ryan... I guess something must have just "broke" allowing the two of you some time to talk with us...
 
I have always been pleased with Cakewalk's relationship with the users and all the many extras "you" have always supplied with giving us more than we ask for most of the time... Very pleasing even when much of it is not useful to me. Sonar has come a long way and I look forward to my future with you guys with great relish.
 
I know I'm frequently harsh in some of my attitudes. But over the years I've found that many of these things I stand up about get resolved eventually, so my staying on it seems to be working! ;-)
 
So, now onto the future!
 
Again, thanks for joining in the chat here...
 
Keni
 

I wouldn't say your harsh keni.
I know you haven't been happy with the x series too much but for what its worth, you've explained yourself very clearly, in a productive way and I agree with you on many things.
you and beepster are two people I admire very much, you have a positive way of communicating your issues.

Just for fun, here is a list of the features added to each version of Sonar since Pro Audio 9. 
What a journey it has been! So much of these things I can't imagine doing without. So many of them have been baked in the product since Version 5.
I've egotistically bolded any feature that I, personally, took delight in. (SONAR 3 was quite a release, wasn't it?)
 
SONAR 1

• unlimited track and effect count
• 960ppqn MIDI resolution
• WDM Driver kernal streaming
• SMPTE sync
• dual processor support
• dual monitor support
• multiple sound card support (64 virtual Main busses)
• audio loops
• New UI
• non-destructive editing, crossfades
• file import format support

SONAR 2

• DXi multi-output suport
• Additional control surface support
• ReWire support
• RIFF support
• UI: Synth Rack
• UI: Drum Grid and Drum Maps, pattern brush
• Cyclone DXi included
• Bundled Smart Loops
• "XL" version includes 3 bundled plugins (Timeworks, DR-008)

 
SONAR 3 Producer

• "Gapless" Audio Engine
• path delay compensation
• Transmit MTC
• Easy per-track input monitoring
• Flexible hierarchical bussing
• MIDI clip loops
• UI: New Console View
• UI: Track Inspector
• Bundled Sonitus FX, Lexicon Pantheon, VSampler3

 
SONAR 4 Producer

• Surround Sound support
• POWR dithering, MPEX Time-scaling
• Video Thumbnail Track
• Navigator pane
• Track Folders
• Track Layers for multiple takes
• Track Freeze for virtual instruments
• Metronome routing to buss
• Improved loop constructor
• Bundle: TTS1 (Roland Sound Canvas)

 
SONAR 5 Producer

• 64 bit & 32 bit Native versions
• 64 bit floating point double precision audio engine
• Track View In-line PRV
• Track Templates
• Per-clip FX
• Improved MIDI FX UI
• Buss waveform preview
• enhanced Automation envelope editing
• V-Vocal (by Roland)
• Bundled: Pentagon I, SFZ, PSyn II, GrooveSynth,
• RXP REX player, PerfectSpace Convolution Reverb

SONAR 6 Producer

• Active Controller Technology (ACT)
• Audio Snap
• Built-in VST 2.4 support
• UI: Improved Synth Rack
• UI: Floating modular Transport
• FX: VC64 Vintage Channel,
• SessionDrummer 2

 
SONAR 7 Producer

• Step Sequencer
• Improved PRV: multi-lane, customized tool configuration
• X-Ray window transparency
• Dim Solo for tracks
• External inserts
• Side-chain support
• CD rip, burn, Publisher
• V-Vocal: Pitch-to-MIDI
• FX: Boost11, LP64 EQ / Multiband Compressor
• Import/Export file format support (AIFF, Ogg, FLAC, etc)
• Bundle: Z3ta+ 1.5; Rapture LE, Dimension LE
• Bundle: Dropzone

 
SONAR 8 Producer

• CPU optimizations
• WASAPI driver support
• Instrument Tracks (MIDI+Instrument)
• Transport: Rewind, FF, pause
• Loop Explorer 2
• Aim Assist mouse position indicator
• Exclusive Solo, Solo Override, Clip grouping
• FX: TS64 Transient shaper; TL64 Tube Leveler; Channel Tools
• Bundle: Dimension Pro ; BeatScape;
• Truepianos Amber; Guitar Rig 3 LE

SONAR 8.5 Producer

• Matrix View
• AudioSnap 2
• Step Sequencer 2
• MIDI Track Arpeggiator
• Updated BitBridge XR
• FX: PX64 Drum Strip; VX64 Vocal Strip
• FX: Stuff from Project5
• Session Drummer 3
• REX import

 
SONAR X1 Producer

• UI: Redesigned console, track views; transport; track inspector
• Revised key shortcuts; menus; media browser
• Revised PRV tools
• ProChannel (super-fx bin, default set of optional ProChannel-only modules)
• FX chain presets

 

great list stickman, thanks for that.
nice to revisit some of the new release, so cool features weve enjoyed over the years.

dubdisciple
 
As far as the patch or lack of patch.  I seriously would rather they put their resources in the next version if it's already in the pipeline than spend too much time trying gto pacify every little complaint in a perpetually uphill battle.  We all know that at some point Cakewalk will provide the newer version dirt cheap anyway.

Damn..... I wish I had something to sell you. I don't even have to get it right, just start working on the next "project"
 
However, I do understand the nature of software & Windows & it's highly possible that no app would be 100% on the platform. But... being that we are all Windows users, we can't deny there is a level we're all accepting as good enough. Otherwise we'd have moved on from Windows. 
 
I truly don't know the state of X2. I don't own it, never tried it. But what I'm seeing here is odd to me. Seems like there is more discontent than content & while it's true this is a help forum, this is not normal. It is true that every other forum sees this level of discontent, but it's cyclical. It's cyclical here too. This is a high period for this forum, if I were at Cakewalk I'd take notice. I'm sure Cakewalk has noticed, the participation in this thread pretty much says so. 
 
I understand they can't talk about future plans, but this wouldn't be an issue if they had a good track record of fixing most of the "major" bugs before moving on to the next version. 
 
I'd work on that "perception" if I were Cakewalk. 

chuckebaby
I wouldn't say your harsh keni.I know you haven't been happy with the x series too much but for what its worth, you've explained yourself very clearly, in a productive way and I agree with you on many things.you and beepster are two people I admire very much, you have a positive way of communicating your issues.

Thanks chuckebaby... I do my best to be sincere but I recognize that I get a bit vociferous at times! ;-)

You're always so well focused on getting the job done and sharing your knowledge. I'm always amazed that you stay so alm about issues...

I have always had a lot of faith in the Cakewalk team and still do over many years and many personnel changes. I like to believe it now has a life of it's own!

...and I've also found that it takes a bit of work to bring many issues to the surface and if we all simply grin and bear it, Cakewalk doesn't know of the issue... The more immediate it is to core workflow, the more immediate changes are needed... Who's workflow? Always a good question, but ther are obviously things that essentially everyone uses to varying extent...

Here's to a great software and team of developers/users... I sure want this to continue to bed a part of my life as it has been from the start!

Keni

thunderkyss
I understand they can't talk about future plans, but this wouldn't be an issue if they had a good track record of fixing most of the "major" bugs before moving on to the next version. 
 
I'd work on that "perception" if I were Cakewalk. 

I work in application development for an Internet solutions company and we rarely ever have problems with clients complaining about the way we handle our applications. We don't release anything to the client until we have been through the application and made sure that everything works as expected. Sometimes a bug does get through, but it is fixed almost as soon as it is discovered. We don't charge to fix bugs, because those are our responsibility. If I write the code and there is a bug in it that doesn't get found until later, then I fix it and don't wait weeks or months to get the fix to the client. The bug is usually fixed within a few days at no charge and it doesn't take long to compile a program for release. We do charge to add or modify features.
 
I don't expect CW to do business in the same manner, but I also don't like having to pay to get bug fixes, when I have already paid for a product that should be working properly upon installation, it doesn't matter what new features they include with the bug fixes. I am delighted to pay for new features that I like. I am not delighted to pay for bug fixes that the programmers should have made a long time ago.
 
If they spent less time developing new features (new features = new bugs) and more time fixing old bugs, that "perception" would change. It seems that since Roland took the wheel, customer relations has gone downhill a bit.

With all this talk about X2B, as a new (active) user, I assumed that X2a must have been:
 
a) some time in the distant past; and
b) a pile of crap
 
I just went back to the announcement.  That was only 6 freaking months ago, people, and it was loaded with enhancements as well as bug fixes.
 
You guys don't know how good you have it.  Many software products get a lot worse treatment than that.  One of the realities of software development is that complexity forces larger and larger test cycles.  It is one thing to put out a simple website or mobile app and call it bug free -- or to put out rapid patches if bugs are reported.  That maintenance model is not sustainable as the project complexity increases.  And I would say SONAR is one of the most complex programs in any software category by now.  With something like that, it really is not wise to slop out a patch a day.  That approach will inevitably result in a maintenance nightmare.
 
While this "woe is me" thread was laboring along, I did a small Sonar project to continue up the learning curve.  It was an accompaniment for a set of etudes.  I had the piano track on MIDI already.  I added French horn, flute, and string bass parts, did some nice effects, used the tempo tool to add rubato, rit and fermatas where indicated in the score, automated the mix to match the printed dynamics, and then did an editing cycle in the MIDI editor to clean up some conflicts with the solo voice.  Everything worked perfectly and I couldn't be happier with the finished product.  My guess is my experience is more typical than the stories on this thread.
 
The only bug I encountered is that at one point, the tempo tool stopped allowing me to make changes on every beat.  So I did have to shut down Sonar and start it up again to clear that.  And that is typical of the other bugs I have experienced.  None of them have been very severe in my experience.