Hi Bill,

Thank you for your comments. I appreciate your taking the time to listen and post here and value your comments greatly.

Most of the credit for what you heard should go to BIAB and Jamstix, although it does take some talent I suppose to remove stuff and change the instrumentation all around! What you heard is radically different than what was originally put out by BIAB, but it was "all there," so to speak --- a "diamond in the rough." Primarily I wanted to show that things put out by BIAB don't have to sound formulaic; this is up to the user.

On Jamstix and the bassline: Sorry if I confused the issue. I copied the original bassline to the Jamstix MIDI track, and Jamstix built a new drum track using that bassline. I did modify the bassline, but it was largely already there. BIAB has reasonable basslines and accompaniment in general.

Creating new styles might appeal to you with your background. (I do not have any compositional background, but probably inherited something from one of my grandmothers who had a degree in music and taught piano for many years.) It's amazing what BIAB can do with a few patterns that are variations of one another. You would probably also be impressed with the heuristics which you can modify extensively. A lot of things are there that are part of every musician's bag of tricks that are not really part of music theory, at least not the basic theory that I've seen.

Best regards,
Dave Clark

ORIGINAL: slughand

Michael, I purchased BIAB 2007 last year after it came out having heard about it but never trying it myself. I was pleasantly surprised how this one tool sparked my creative juices as it did and got me to working in Sonar again and completing long awaited projects. If you would like to hear an example of a song using a product of BIAB 2007 using Real Drums then goto www.soundclick.com/drmiller and check out the song "Living Water". The drums, bass and pads were all created using BIAB 2007, exported to wave file and imported into Sonar (no midi) where I added the guitars and vocals, mixed and mastered. For the money BIAB 2007 is worth every penny.

Thats a very nice song! Drums and guitars sound nice as well, cant believe biab churned it out!

ORIGINAL: DaveClark


Here is a recent example:

http://mysite.verizon.net/dave_clark/Encounter_with_Unknowns.mp3

It doesn't sound anything like BIAB, or at least not to me, yet this is indeed where it began its life. I threw out the drum track and set Jamstix loose on the bass part. I also added some "ear candy" keyboard noodling and electric guitar tomfoolery. This type of thing is always necessary to keep it from sounding so formulaic from BIAB.

Regards to all,
Dave Clark

Nice composition Dave! How does that work, jamstix just programs a drum track using the bass line? Does the drum track need a lot of editing afterwards?

Neole,

Thanks for your comment.

As you probably saw in a later post: Yes, I just copied the bassline to the MIDI track of Jamstix (which most synths would just play) and it created new MIDI output data which I recorded, then fed to a hardware synth.

No, I did not edit the Jamstix MIDI output much at all; however, I used the bassline and the new drum track as the starting point from which I decided when/where to turn on various instruments, what those instruments would be, etc. If I had had some preconceived ideas about this already, I would have had to edit the Jamstix MIDI output (the new drum track), but I suspect that this editing would have been largely confined to moving bars/measures around rather than note or phrase editing. It could stand a little editing, but came out quite well without much.

IMO BIAB + Jamstix = 1-2 Knockout!

On edit: Thanks to this thread, I'd like to look at Jammer, too. These types of tools are pretty amazing.

Regards,
Dave Clark

I love working with midi tools as well. Havent tried jamstix, looks like a useful tool now! Try Onyx Arranger as well, you might like it.

ORIGINAL: DaveClark

Most of the credit for what you heard should go to BIAB and Jamstix, although it does take some talent I suppose to remove stuff and change the instrumentation all around! What you heard is radically different than what was originally put out by BIAB, but it was "all there," so to speak --- a "diamond in the rough." Primarily I wanted to show that things put out by BIAB don't have to sound formulaic; this is up to the user.

You are absolutely right, Dave. The talent is in *hearing* the music in whatever form it appears. I, too, have had some real inspirational moments by just clicking through various patches on my XP-50 while playing a given MIDI file. It's amazing what can come out--and where it will lead. But, you do, as you say, have to have the talent to hear the good stuff and ignore the not so good stuff. It's as valid a method of composition as any, as far as I'm concerned.

On Jamstix and the bassline: Sorry if I confused the issue. I copied the original bassline to the Jamstix MIDI track, and Jamstix built a new drum track using that bassline. I did modify the bassline, but it was largely already there. BIAB has reasonable basslines and accompaniment in general.

OK, I get it now. I have only messed around with Jamstix for an hour or two (been busy as hell for the past couple of months) and I was trying to figure out how you got it to play a bass line. It's clear to me now what you did. Thanks.

(I do not have any compositional background, but probably inherited something from one of my grandmothers who had a degree in music and taught piano for many years.)

Breeding always shows, doesn't it? ;>)

Bill

You can search the net and find many comparisons of Jammer and BIAB. In general, BIAB has a lot more features and a much larger user base, with a zillion more styles. However, my experience has been that most of the styles in BIAB sounds like crap and the program has way too many features. Jammer really seems to have "the right" features and I much prefer its GUI in general. But the downside is that it is developed by one guy and doesn't get updated very often. Haven't really had many/any bugs though. I personally like the output from Jammer better. The BIAB always sounds totally cheesy to me.... I think if you're into jazz...go with BIAB though.

Another thing you might want to know is that it sounds like the Jammer guy is working on an MFX version of Jammer to come out soon... which would work VERY well with Sonar.

.. on the notion that use of these programs equates to cheating.

It's not so black and white.

Personally, I think it's a gross misrepresentation, and a huge disservice to one's self, to proffer music as "originally conceived composition" that's nothing more than canned ideas generated from anywhere but from inside you.
This said, I often begin my projects with canned ideas. When a canned starting point has been warped so far away from it's initial premise (when it becomes something that could only have come from me), I consider what it has become wholehearted, without reservation: my original idea. This is my voice, my heart, my soul, my signature sound.
There are times I consider a piece I've posted up, one with lightly altered canned midi, a co-authored collaboration. (this is mostly just jam-over wankage)

Were I a professional, charged with creating works within time constraints and whatnot, I wouldn't think the prideful way I do at all. By necessicity, my values would evolve along very different lines. First off, I'd be so completely immersed in my task, I'd never consider such folly as: "Is this cheating?" :regarding my use of canned midi. I'm doing my job. Whatever I make, regardless the means of derivation, is wholely my creation. Use of unaltered canned midi in a working professional's piece is 100% acceptable and 100% honorable.
Professional necessity forges its own path, it's own unique value set, which is different than mine.

A working professional, even a home hobbyist such as myself, can't BS his peers. Heck, the most casual of listeners instantly recognizes the sound of canned cheese.
To sum: Either your music sounds right or it doesn't. Either you got chops or you don't. There really is no cheating and getting away with it.

This is a great topic! I'm enjoying this thread. Leonard

ORIGINAL: Leonard

Were I a professional, charged with creating works within time constraints and whatnot, I wouldn't think the prideful way I do at all. By necessicity, my values would evolve along very different lines. First off, I'd be so completely immersed in my task, I'd never consider such folly as: "Is this cheating?" :regarding my use of canned midi. I'm doing my job. Whatever I make, regardless the means of derivation, is wholely my creation. Use of unaltered canned midi in a working professional's piece is 100% acceptable and 100% honorable.
Professional necessity forges its own path, it's own unique value set, which is different than mine.

Thats true. A lot of time I use biab or onyx arranger or acid loops to quickly produce tracks or background scores which would take a lot more time if I manually played/composed each intrument in the track. But I never think of it as cheating in any way. If things were that way, people should consider using even samples as cheating since they personally havent recorded the notes of the violins or programmed the patches in the hard/softsynth they are using.

Interesting. There are different philosophies. I hear you that you are just trying to stay on schedule. However, I have to say that this is something I think sad happening in the pro music area. People using regurgitated acid loops, etc..has brought us to a place where musicians are acting more like producers than actual composers anymore. I think its sad when a "pro" lowers the craft to this level. If a pro can't stick to a higher level of artistry, then who else is going to do it.