2016/08/26 10:33:54
Unknowen
Beepster
Oh, Dave. Back to playing the poor widdle victim again I see (and seemingly confusing me with a SLEW of other members... lol).
 
Don't you see? All I do is give you enough rope.
 
What you do with it is all you, bud.
 
My work here is done.
 
buhbye
 
;-)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jenWdylTtzs
2016/08/26 11:18:14
bitflipper
Beepster and Dave000: this is an interesting topic to the rest of us, and we'd prefer to discuss it like adults. If you've got personal issues to work out, I understand. Talk it over. Just do it somewhere else, please.
2016/08/26 12:27:23
slartabartfast
soens
slartabartfast
Although you can request that SoundCloud remove your work from public access at any time, under 17 U.S. Code § 203 (b) (1):
"A derivative work prepared under authority of the grant before its termination may continue to be utilized under the terms of the grant after its termination, but this privilege does not extend to the preparation after the termination of other derivative works based upon the copyrighted work covered by the terminated grant."



...HUH???!? I have no idea what that even means!



OK. In even plainer English and with some background:
 
Congress is trying to protect two artists in this clause. The first artist is the original author/composer of a work or art. He is granted the sole right to make a "derivative work" i. e. to include it in a compilation like a best of CD, to change the words or music, to sample small portions to put in another song etc. This is an exclusive right not subject to a compulsory license, so only the original author can grant a license (the "grant" above) to anyone else to do any of those things, without which the second artist cannot make a derivative work without infringing the first artist's copyright. 
 
The second artist buys a license from the first that enables him to make a derivative work of the original, or allows him to make derivative works for a period of time after which he must stop making new derivative works (the termination of the grant).  The second artist alters his work from the original sufficiently or puts it in a creative context that allows him to claim his own copyright to the portions of the original work that are his unique contribution. He cannot claim any rights in portions of the work that were created by the original artist, but he has expended effort to create the derivative work for which he expects to be compensated. He then begins publishing the derivative work, which he created under license (the authority of the grant), and is making a money off it. The first artist decides that he wants to take back the license (terminate the grant) he sold to the second artist. If he could simply do that, he could stop the second artist from selling any more copies of the second artist's creation--the derivative work. 
 
The section above protects the second artist from losing his work, by saying that the first artist cannot do a take back. Once the derivative work has been created it is out of the original artist's control, and the rights in the new portions of the derivative work belong to the second artist. the original artist can prevent the second artist from creating any new derivative works, by terminating his grant of a license, but any work that was created while the license is in effect belongs to the second artist exclusively.
 
In the context of the SoundCloud TOS, once you have uploaded your song, agreeing to the TOS grants users the right to make derivative works of your song for free if they find it there during the time when it is covered by the licensing provisions of the TOS. So if you decide to tell SoundCloud to take your song off the service, even assuming that such action would terminate a grant of the license, anyone who has already made a derivative work based on your song can do anything he wants with it until the copyright the user obtained by creating the derivative work expires, after which he can still do anything he wants because it has entered the public domain (which lasts forever).
2016/08/26 12:51:45
eph221
Slugbaby
I just recalled an interesting mixed experience regarding covers.
 
A small film company asked my old band to record Joy Division's "Love Will Tear Us Apart" to use as the themesong for an upcoming movie.  We went into the studio (back in the expensive "tape days") to cut it, and afterwards the company was told that they'd have to pay $60,000 for the rights.  They couldn't afford it at the time, and dropped the idea.  Leaving us with the studio bill and a great-but-unusable recording.
 
A few years later, I started working with a friend that was a huge New Order fan.  We recorded an unlicensed version of their "Age Of Consent."  Somehow, this got to Peter Hook (bassist for NO and JD) and he LOVED it.  He then asked us to do a similar version of NO's "1963" for an upcoming New Order tribute album.
 
I wish he'd been that generous with Love Will Tear Us Apart...


Slug,
 
That's the gist of it all, and it's kind of like software open source.  Some songwriters probably welcome the flattery and the noteriety (as long as it's documented somewhere) and are more *open source* and others pinch their pennies.  If you did an unlicensed copy of one of my songs but gave me credit...and someone that actually performs and makes money at this game liked it and wanted to use it,  being more *opensource* could be a way of getting my songs in front of the people that matter.  Of course I would be relying on being credited.
 
The songwriters in Nashville all know eachother so any dirty tricks get known pretty quickly.  I imagine that's true most places.  
2016/08/26 14:18:24
craigb
I'm still trying to figure out how this works with cover bands (there's a few of those around, eh?).  Besides the live performances, there's demos to get the gigs.  If most of the above were followed, the wouldn't be any cover bands (or tribute bands!). None could afford it.
2016/08/26 16:10:28
Unknowen
craigb
I'm still trying to figure out how this works with cover bands (there's a few of those around, eh?).  Besides the live performances, there's demos to get the gigs.  If most of the above were followed, the wouldn't be any cover bands (or tribute bands!). None could afford it.


I kind of think it's not that much... .01 cents in a bar that holds maybe 200 people... cover charge... hum? maybe that's what "cover charge" means? .01 x 200 = $2. per song. 50 songs... 2 x 50 = $100.00 all and all, and how much did the bar make off 200.00 people? $40.00 off each person low end... 200 people X $40.00 = $8,000 overhead - 20%... $1,600. still a profit of $6,400 profit. oh maybe  the bar will pay the band... lol $200.00 big ones...
Seems that more bands have to pay to play these days though... I did this without a cover charge....
*I'm in a small town north of the cities in MN, so how many people that can fit in a bar is maybe 200. plus .
LA or NY.... ??? cost of living... ?
 
 
There are also jukebox royalties.....
2016/08/26 16:30:51
eph221
Dave000
craigb
I'm still trying to figure out how this works with cover bands (there's a few of those around, eh?).  Besides the live performances, there's demos to get the gigs.  If most of the above were followed, the wouldn't be any cover bands (or tribute bands!). None could afford it.


I kind of think it's not that much... .01 cents in a bar that holds maybe 200 people... cover charge... hum? maybe that's what "cover charge" means? .01 x 200 = $2. per song. 50 songs... 2 x 50 = $100.00 all and all, and how much did the bar make off 200.00 people? $40.00 off each person low end... 200 people X $40.00 = $8,000 overhead - 20%... $1,600. still a profit of $6,400 profit. oh maybe  the bar will pay the band... lol $200.00 big ones...
Seems that more bands have to pay to play these days though... I did this without a cover charge....
*I'm in a small town north of the cities in MN, so how many people that can fit in a bar is maybe 200. plus .
LA or NY.... ??? cost of living... ?
 
 
There are also jukebox royalties.....


It's always been *pay to play*.  It's always been somebody's money.  Maybe not yours, but somebodys.  
2016/08/26 17:03:55
soens
Guitarhacker
With a copyrighted song, it doesn't matter whether you plan to use the song to make money....as in including it on a CD for commercial release, or if you post it to a forum site like our Songs Forum and let a few people hear it for no financial gain..... you still owe the royalties to the folks who own the rights to the song.



I thought, in a fair trial, that such things had to be "proven". You can "expect' and "suppose" all day long, but most of the time the courts won't vote in your favor. They want "proof".
2016/08/26 17:05:20
soens
bitflipper
Beepster and Dave000: this is an interesting topic to the rest of us, and we'd prefer to discuss it like adults. If you've got personal issues to work out, I understand. Talk it over. Just do it somewhere else, please.

 
!!PM!!
2016/08/26 17:14:21
soens
"A small film company asked my old band to record Joy Division's "Love Will Tear Us Apart" to use as the themesong for an upcoming movie.  We went into the studio (back in the expensive "tape days") to cut it, and afterwards the company was told that they'd have to pay $60,000 for the rights.  They couldn't afford it at the time, and dropped the idea.  Leaving us with the studio bill and a great-but-unusable recording."
 
A valuable (tho expensive) lesson. Always know the legality of what you're doing. 1st, the film company should have known this would happen and shouldn't have asked in the first place. It was on them to get permission The band should have asked if they had permission. It's as simple as "what if it was your song they were cashing in on without your permission".
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