Hi, guys. I have a bit of a conundrum and was hoping for a bit of advice. I've been going through an old set of tracks that were performed live in studio without a click track. There is quite a bit of drift so I'm using the Audiosnap Pallette's Edit Clip Map function on the kick drum part to manually sync up the project timeline to the tracks. Just trying to get a tempo map of everything and so I can decide what to do from there. For the most part this has been working because the majority of the songs more or less have a steady kick beat. However...

One track starts off at half time, is rather slow and the kick is only really hitting accents. Also the first half of this part has no kick at all (guitar intro). Then it goes into another slow part which is different accents and another tempo before the song finally kicks into the main part. Halfway through there is a breakdown which is actually a time sig change but I think I can force it into the main tempo and finally a revisit to the intro part and back into the main riffs until the end.

So I've got a LOT of time changes and it seems to be confusing the Audiosnap engine. If I select the entire clip for editing it won't let me move the beat nodes (not transients but the markers at the top of the clip map that are getting lined up to the transients). If I split the beginning part from the main part then I can move them however after editing the map I get an error message because it's not giving me a 0 on the timeline and it doesn't seem to want to allow me to move things around in a way that will fix this... at least not a way that's making any sense.

So after fiddling with this for a while yesterday I decided to call it a night and try again today. Before I do though I was wondering if you guys could give me some tips on how I should approach this process. I really wish I could just edit the entire clip as one unit but as I said then I can't move beat markers.

I've got a lot more I'm curious about regarding this and what I intend to do with it after it's done but I'll leave it at that for now.

I hope you are all enjoying your long weekend. Thanks.

For those unfamiliar with what I'm talking about here is a vid of FBB doing the same thing... but on a far less problematic track. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VR7WkHywTo

Splitting or slip editing the track should fix most problems but you do need to apply trimming or bounce the clip down once you've done that.

If you want to keep the clip whole you can always add transients manually to give you something to line up beat markers with.

HTH

Thanks Karl but it looks like Edit Clip Map is just being a buggy POS for this track. Ugh, so annoying because everything else was moving along so well. Even more annoying because this track needs an accurate tempo map more than any of them. Oh well. At least I know how to do it thanks to your vid. Maybe I should show it to X2 so it could learn how to do it as well. lol

Okay, made a little progress. I installed the A patch after creating a restore point. That seems to have help reduce a LITTLE bit of the bugginess. Now I can grab the tempo markers with a little more consistency in Edit Clip Map mode. Still kind of hit or miss though. Also reducing my pallette threshold to 0% helped me have more transients to drag the markers over top of (can seem to just place them where you want which would make things a LOT easier... if there is a way to do this I'd love to hear it). For some reason when I enable individual transient markers the tempo markers won't snap to them and I'm also not seeing any way to insert markers where there are no transients which again would be a helpful feature for this process. The other problem was trying to get my 0:1 marker to move where I wanted it so I ended up trimming the clip and now I can drag it to the first transient which is actually the first guitar note bleeding through the drum mics. Again this is where being able to either insert a transient marker even if there is no transient and/or just being able to drag the tempo markers and drop them where I want would come in super handy. The reason I'm doing all this is so I can view the tempo fluctuations in the project to see problem areas and make decisions as to how to proceed. I may just try to average out portions of the track and set tempo in tempo view then use that grid to make corrections or I may try some time stretching wackiness. Either way I need this initial map. Kind of wish this all wasn't so buggy and rigid. Perhaps I am overlooking something but I don't see any sections in the manual on this so I'm pretty much using trial and error based on Karl's vid. Alright... back to it. Cheers.

I guess it is safe for CW to release b now.

You just know they were holding it up its release on my account. lol

Okay, I think I've got the first section under control after much fiddling. It's extracting a bad set of estimated tempos which is making things difficult and after selecting the lower tempo (I was only given two options) which I thought was more appropriate I went through the whole bloody thing but because I was dragging beat markers backwards I ended up running out of markers. lol So I tried the higher tempo estimate which made me push the markers forward. That seems to have worked and I applied it to the time ruler. Hopefully that won't screw up the next clip (after my slice). This feature always seems to bury the 0:1 marker past the beginning of the clip too which cause a lot of chaos when trying to get the first few beats set. Methinks this would be a whole lot simpler if we could just set the time ruler into edit mode and just drag the beat markers where we want them there. Maybe we can but I've never seen it mentioned nor can I find a way to access such a feature. Perhaps this should be a group request. I can't be the only one with this need. Anyway... thanks for listening and sorry for the blocks of text. I haven't installed Opera again after my last wipe of this system and I'm too focused on this other stuff to write my own tags. Cheers.

Beepster


Hi, guys. I have a bit of a conundrum and was hoping for a bit of advice. I've been going through an old set of tracks that were performed live in studio without a click track. There is quite a bit of drift so I'm using the Audiosnap Pallette's Edit Clip Map function on the kick drum part to manually sync up the project timeline to the tracks. Just trying to get a tempo map of everything and so I can decide what to do from there. For the most part this has been working because the majority of the songs more or less have a steady kick beat. However...

One track starts off at half time, is rather slow and the kick is only really hitting accents. Also the first half of this part has no kick at all (guitar intro). Then it goes into another slow part which is different accents and another tempo before the song finally kicks into the main part. Halfway through there is a breakdown which is actually a time sig change but I think I can force it into the main tempo and finally a revisit to the intro part and back into the main riffs until the end.

So I've got a LOT of time changes and it seems to be confusing the Audiosnap engine. If I select the entire clip for editing it won't let me move the beat nodes (not transients but the markers at the top of the clip map that are getting lined up to the transients). If I split the beginning part from the main part then I can move them however after editing the map I get an error message because it's not giving me a 0 on the timeline and it doesn't seem to want to allow me to move things around in a way that will fix this... at least not a way that's making any sense.

So after fiddling with this for a while yesterday I decided to call it a night and try again today. Before I do though I was wondering if you guys could give me some tips on how I should approach this process. I really wish I could just edit the entire clip as one unit but as I said then I can't move beat markers.

I've got a lot more I'm curious about regarding this and what I intend to do with it after it's done but I'll leave it at that for now.

I hope you are all enjoying your long weekend. Thanks.

High Beep,
I thought to miss you here in the forum, but I´m simply to distracted .
Nice to see you here!
Pragi

There's a few tips that will help with clip map editing and extracting tempo maps, especially the dreaded "Tempo out of range" warning.
 
 

1. Set the project tempo to a very rough approximation of the actual tempo. Use a clip with a steady distinct beat if possible - kick is ideal (usually - unless it's my drumming  )
2. Trim the clip and gate if need be to remove any studio outtake, chit-chat etc so the clip is as clean as possible and then "bounce to clip" <---very important
3. Use the resolution and threshold controls to reduce unwanted transient markers or add more manually if needed.
4. Move the clip so the first down beat lines up with the first beat of a measure (Any measure it doesn't matter but remember to select all clips so they all move) Turning on Track View Menu---->Display---->Vertical grid lines---->in front of clips will help here. 
5. Open the clip map editor and check that Sonar's "best guess" at the tempo is roughly correct - if not change it.

 After having done all that you should find that the beat marker 1:1 is in the correct place but move it if it isn't. Depending on the consistency of the tempo there shouldn't be too much beat marker moving to do either.
 
Alternatively get SWA's Complete Sonar X2 where I demo all of that in Chapter 5 Editing - "Working with Audiosnap (Pt. 2) (7:00:31)"