vintagevibe

jsg
In terms of notation, the only real problem with Sonar notation, I believe, is with the display of tied and dotted triplets and 64th notes and 32nd triplets.  They don't display properly, never did.  The good news is the play back accurately so it's more a graphic annoyance rather than anything that prevents composing in the staff view. 

JG
www.ottavarecords.com

  

There are a host of showstopping deficiencies in the staff view.  Inability to correctly handle tuplets, incorrect enharmonics, bizarre default groupings that take huge amounts of time to correct... If the forum search worked you could find pages and pages of issues with staff view.  Sonar staff view in amateurish and barely usable for serious work compared to Cubase, DP, Logic and Protools.

I've been working in the staff view since Cakewalk first introduced it and have produced 12 CDs with it, so I pretty much can say I know a lot about its deficits.  Incorrect harmonics is subjective, it depends upon whether you're working chromatically, but granted, they could be easier to change.  I detect that you expect the staff view to be a notation/printing aspect of Sonar, where I've always expected it to be only a MIDI input and editing tool.  All my scores are done in Sibelius after importing an SMF into it, which is where I clean up the notation and bring it up to professional standards.   As a midi inputing and editing tool, the staff view is not too bad, although DPs is better.  Cubase?  Not so sure, I worked with it for several weeks and found it very cumbersome, more options than Sonar, but also complicated in terms of getting the music to look right.  Oh, by the way, I just finished my 8th symphony and it is most definitely a "serious work"--all done in the staff view.  I'll let you be the judge on whether it is possible to do serious work in Sonar:  www.cdbaby.com/jerrygerber4
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com
 
 
 

Nice work, Jerry.   I listened through all of the previews and it's obvious that A) You've spent some time on this, and B) SONAR's staff view hasn't held you back.
 

I'll let you be the judge on whether it is possible to do serious work in Sonar

 
Aye... but which version?   
 
 
I've been curious to try DP for a long time, but the impressions given so far in this thread have steered me away from tryimg out the demo.   Maybe some day...  
 

jsg

vintagevibe

jsg
In terms of notation, the only real problem with Sonar notation, I believe, is with the display of tied and dotted triplets and 64th notes and 32nd triplets.  They don't display properly, never did.  The good news is the play back accurately so it's more a graphic annoyance rather than anything that prevents composing in the staff view. 

JG
www.ottavarecords.com

  

There are a host of showstopping deficiencies in the staff view.  Inability to correctly handle tuplets, incorrect enharmonics, bizarre default groupings that take huge amounts of time to correct... If the forum search worked you could find pages and pages of issues with staff view.  Sonar staff view in amateurish and barely usable for serious work compared to Cubase, DP, Logic and Protools.

I've been working in the staff view since Cakewalk first introduced it and have produced 12 CDs with it, so I pretty much can say I know a lot about its deficits.  Incorrect harmonics is subjective, it depends upon whether you're working chromatically, but granted, they could be easier to change.  I detect that you expect the staff view to be a notation/printing aspect of Sonar, where I've always expected it to be only a MIDI input and editing tool.  All my scores are done in Sibelius after importing an SMF into it, which is where I clean up the notation and bring it up to professional standards.   As a midi inputing and editing tool, the staff view is not too bad, although DPs is better.  Cubase?  Not so sure, I worked with it for several weeks and found it very cumbersome, more options than Sonar, but also complicated in terms of getting the music to look right.  Oh, by the way, I just finished my 8th symphony and it is most definitely a "serious work"--all done in the staff view.  I'll let you be the judge on whether it is possible to do serious work in Sonar:  www.cdbaby.com/jerrygerber4
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com
 
 
 

@jsg - sounds like you've moved from Sonar 7.0.2 to X2a based on your post above.
 
Any tips/advise for inputting and editing MIDI data in the X2a staff view?

stevec


Nice work, Jerry.   I listened through all of the previews and it's obvious that A) You've spent some time on this, and B) SONAR's staff view hasn't held you back.
 

I'll let you be the judge on whether it is possible to do serious work in Sonar

 
Aye... but which version?   
 
 
I've been curious to try DP for a long time, but the impressions given so far in this thread have steered me away from tryimg out the demo.   Maybe some day...  
 

I've used Sonar 7 for over 5 years.  I recently installed x2a on my DAW and it seems to be quite stable.  It turns out that using hot-keys for notes (q for quarter, s for sixteenth, ctrl-e for eighth, etc.) is actually faster than picking the notes with a mouse as in previous versions.  If I could get DP8 for Windows to work properly I'd get it and learn it, but it crashes on exit every time. 
 
If Cakewalk would either reinstate the color options, or just get rid of all the color options that don't work and fix bugs rather than add more plugins, I'd no doubt stay with Sonar, after nearly getting divorced after 22 years with Cakewalk.  Honestly, there is not a whole lot of difference between X2 and DP8.  Sonar has some better features, DP8 has some better features.  I suppose it comes down to one's working method and how stable the application is.  There's nothing I cannot do on one that I could do on another.  DP8's staff view displays 64th notes, tied and dotted triplets and 32nd note triplets correctly (some assumptions here), and that is really attractive to me.  But if the program crashes, that's the end of that...
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com

pbognar

jsg

vintagevibe

jsg
In terms of notation, the only real problem with Sonar notation, I believe, is with the display of tied and dotted triplets and 64th notes and 32nd triplets.  They don't display properly, never did.  The good news is the play back accurately so it's more a graphic annoyance rather than anything that prevents composing in the staff view. 

JG
www.ottavarecords.com

  

There are a host of showstopping deficiencies in the staff view.  Inability to correctly handle tuplets, incorrect enharmonics, bizarre default groupings that take huge amounts of time to correct... If the forum search worked you could find pages and pages of issues with staff view.  Sonar staff view in amateurish and barely usable for serious work compared to Cubase, DP, Logic and Protools.

I've been working in the staff view since Cakewalk first introduced it and have produced 12 CDs with it, so I pretty much can say I know a lot about its deficits.  Incorrect harmonics is subjective, it depends upon whether you're working chromatically, but granted, they could be easier to change.  I detect that you expect the staff view to be a notation/printing aspect of Sonar, where I've always expected it to be only a MIDI input and editing tool.  All my scores are done in Sibelius after importing an SMF into it, which is where I clean up the notation and bring it up to professional standards.   As a midi inputing and editing tool, the staff view is not too bad, although DPs is better.  Cubase?  Not so sure, I worked with it for several weeks and found it very cumbersome, more options than Sonar, but also complicated in terms of getting the music to look right.  Oh, by the way, I just finished my 8th symphony and it is most definitely a "serious work"--all done in the staff view.  I'll let you be the judge on whether it is possible to do serious work in Sonar:  www.cdbaby.com/jerrygerber4
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com
 
 
 

@jsg - sounds like you've moved from Sonar 7.0.2 to X2a based on your post above.
 
Any tips/advise for inputting and editing MIDI data in the X2a staff view?

Yeah, setup keybindings for your notes:
 
w = whole
q = quarter
e = eighth
s = sixteenth
t = thirtysecond
 
All the above with CTRL (CTRL-e for example) for dotted notes
All of the above with ALT (ALT-s for example) for triplets
 
Also, keep checked the last option on the note select menu that says "last touched".  This allows you to quickly select a note value in the staff view by clicking on a note that has the value you need. 
 
You'll be able to input very quickly if you do this.  Also, one great Sonar feature is that you can have multiple staff view window, docked or undocked, open at the same time.  For some composers, like myself, that is very useful.  Many DAWS do not have this ability to lock windows. 
 
One more tip:  Don't dock the event list.  If you do, the mouse freezes when moving across the data, particularly the "EVENT" (note, controller, patch, etc.) parameter.  Instead, keep it floating and you will avoid this issue. 

w = whole q = quarter e = eighth s = sixteenth t = thirtysecond All the above with CTRL (CTRL-e for example) for dotted notes All of the above with ALT (ALT-s for example) for triplets

 
I may even try the SV again...   
 
Thanks for the suggestion

jsg

I've been working in the staff view since Cakewalk first introduced it and have produced 12 CDs with it, so I pretty much can say I know a lot about its deficits.  Incorrect harmonics is subjective, it depends upon whether you're working chromatically, but granted, they could be easier to change.  I detect that you expect the staff view to be a notation/printing aspect of Sonar, where I've always expected it to be only a MIDI input and editing tool.  All my scores are done in Sibelius after importing an SMF into it, which is where I clean up the notation and bring it up to professional standards.   As a midi inputing and editing tool, the staff view is not too bad, although DPs is better.  Cubase?  Not so sure, I worked with it for several weeks and found it very cumbersome, more options than Sonar, but also complicated in terms of getting the music to look right.  Oh, by the way, I just finished my 8th symphony and it is most definitely a "serious work"--all done in the staff view.  I'll let you be the judge on whether it is possible to do serious work in Sonar:  www.cdbaby.com/jerrygerber4
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com
 
 
 

You suspect wrongly.  I use Sibelius for what it was designed for but I need competent notation to compose inside Sonar on par with it's competition.  If you think it is on par with Cubase, DP, Logic or Protools your don't know anything about those programs.  I'm happy for you that you can compose in the Sonar staff view.  A hole can be dug with a spoon but I prefer a shovel.   Sonar's notation is not on a professional level for a modern DAW.  If you are happy with that fine but it is foolish to try to argue that it is.

vintagevibe

jsg

I've been working in the staff view since Cakewalk first introduced it and have produced 12 CDs with it, so I pretty much can say I know a lot about its deficits.  Incorrect harmonics is subjective, it depends upon whether you're working chromatically, but granted, they could be easier to change.  I detect that you expect the staff view to be a notation/printing aspect of Sonar, where I've always expected it to be only a MIDI input and editing tool.  All my scores are done in Sibelius after importing an SMF into it, which is where I clean up the notation and bring it up to professional standards.   As a midi inputing and editing tool, the staff view is not too bad, although DPs is better.  Cubase?  Not so sure, I worked with it for several weeks and found it very cumbersome, more options than Sonar, but also complicated in terms of getting the music to look right.  Oh, by the way, I just finished my 8th symphony and it is most definitely a "serious work"--all done in the staff view.  I'll let you be the judge on whether it is possible to do serious work in Sonar:  www.cdbaby.com/jerrygerber4

JG
www.jerrygerber.com

You suspect wrongly.  I use Sibelius for what it was designed for but I need competent notation to compose inside Sonar on par with it's competition.  If you think it is on par with Cubase, DP, Logic or Protools your don't know anything about those programs.  I'm happy for you that you can compose in the Sonar staff view.  A hole can be dug with a spoon but I prefer a shovel.   Sonar's notation is not on a professional level for a modern DAW.  If you are happy with that fine but it is foolish to try to argue that it is.
 

There are not too many "modern DAWs" with notation in the first place:  There's Cubase, Logic, Pro Tools, Sonar and Digital Performer.  That's it.  You make it sound like there are gobs of DAWS out there, all with great notation.  DP's notation seems better than Sonar's but I can't get it to not crash on my system so Sonar's staff view is better than none.  When you're composing for 40 instruments and writing 900 measure pieces a simple staff view that doesn't try to be a professional notation program works for me so I can focus on composition rather than trying to create a performance-level score before I've even produced my work. 
 
What exactly can you do, in terms of MIDI editing and MIDI playback in Cubase that you cannot do in Sonar?   Give specific examples please--If you want to be right, or at least be perceived as being right, then please back up your assertion with facts and examples.  No need to mention display of tied and dotted triplets, or display of 32nd triplets or 64th notes.  Everyone knows Sonar's weakness in that area (I still write with those values of course because Sonar plays it back accurately so it doesn't limit my musical imagination). 
 
p.s.  I went to your website Dean and it's infected with a Trojan Virus, not kidding.  Lucky for me, my anti-virus software caught it and blocked it.  Thought you'd want to know...
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com/beyondthemidimockup.htm
 
 

Steinberg recently hired the originators of Sibelius to create a new notation program that would work alongside their current products. Sounds like someone is taking notation seriously.

http://www.newmusicbox.org/articles/keeping-score-spreadbury-speaks-on-sibelius-team-transition/

Yamaha own Steinberg and have strong classical music connections.