swamptooth


fwiw if you've ever recorded audio output from a softsynth, you can see the value after a little while.  it's a nice feature to have with patches that invoke random elements like some of the tools in reaktor.  there are, in some softsynths, parameters that cannot be automated but they can be controlled via screen interface and in a live situation, if you're interacting with your machine you can control the parameters but a reproduction is lost to the ether.  i find myself using record audio from instrument a lot in reason, because i have some patches that use the audio input from other synths with random noise generators as cv signals to other reason synths.  by recording the audio i can find a spot of randomness i like from the carrier signal synth and cut and paste it into different parts of the song. 

I can't argue that its not a feature that people want. I for one have looked at it over the years as an idea and still can't see a use for it. I do know that Reaper has it. But I do prefer recording MIDI. But then I don't do much trance or anything that would need that ability. However the argument that its needed because some synths use random elements confounds me a little. The reason is just when do you know that the recorded audio is the "right" recorded audio. If each run through is different how do you know when its done?

The idea of recording the MIDI seems to me the ideal way to work with MIDI. It gives the same ability as the notion of recording the audio (playback is always an option) but also allows for editing and revision. To me its a real luxury. 

So in what way is it so important to be able to record the audio that can not be achieved with just the MIDI? But don't say its the randomness that matters because by recording the audio you loose the randomness.  

   

There are a couple of instruments that I can think of where this would be very important. One is SpaceDrone from Native Instruments Reaktor 5 player. This is a VST that generates a very complex texture on its own and there is no midi involved. It just starts as soon as you insert it. There are a range of controls on the GUI which do have a major influence as to how it sounds and what it is doing. You could never repeat a performance in a million years. Recording audio directly out of this would be essential.

NewsCool is also a whacky drum machine from the same people. There are images that you can draw and manipulate that have a severe effect on what you hear also. NewsCool can also work without any midi input or midi tracks. It does sync to your host tempo though but it can be very random especially if you manipulate the images while it plays.

I have a few other synths too that do involve random sound generation and recording and playing back the midi data does not yield the same sound being generated on each pass.

So the idea is to be able to capture these performances and while some of them may be average some of them may also be amazing and if you can record them then you have frozen them for life and you then build on those recordings.

Studio One also has the ability to create tracks and the inputs can be direct from any VST or any buss as well including your main stereo mix. (Apart from all the normal input sources of course) It is an excellent feature and I have used it on a few occasions. It allows you to perform live moves either from the mouse or a control surface and record those movements directly. Faster because you don't have to involve automation. Yes it can cause feedback but you just have to be smart enough not to input monitor on certain occasions and you can avoid it.

It is wrong to put down the idea just because Sonar cannot do it or just because you may be someone who does not need it. For others it may be a revelation. That is why we use other DAW's.

SONAR allows you to do a live bounce using the Live Input option in the Bounce To Tracks dialog. However, you would need to also be bouncing an existing track so you would get the sound from that mixed in with the live signal. Although, now that I think about it, you might be able to create a blank audio clip in the track being bounced and then only hear the live signal that way. Haven't tried it though, so not sure it would work. And of course, this would be a workaround, not the actual feature you're looking for...

Scott

--
Scott R. Garrigus - http://garrigus.com - SONAR X2 Power! - http://garrigus.com/?SonarX2Power
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Jeff if those synths are not triggered by MIDI how do they know what note to play?  Also how does one "play" one? Then, I thought Reaktor did respond to MIDI. 

The short answer is (at least currently), the output of a virtual instrument can't be recorded live (as it's being played).
As a workaround, you can insert a VSTi recording plugin (mentioned below)...

Hi John. Of course there are many normal Reaktor synths too that do respond to incoming midi data just as normal. The ones I was talking about like Space Drone for example are creating completely non tonal sounds or atonal textures. (no pitches per se) Very soundtrack stuff. Dark and interesting. Complex sounds. It does it on its own and it just evolves too. Even if you don't touch a thing on the front panel it will be something completely different within 10 seconds. It is just a continuous evolving ambient texture with no rhythms. 

The drum machine plays complex rhythms that are dependant on what the images are. If you leave the images alone then they repeat themselves eg over several bars but it is when you are altering the images then the rhythms are constantly changing. 

It is a bit unusual and very unpredictable. Completely the opposite to what we are used to! They are fascinating though and I personally love that type of thing.

There are plugins that do compose and harmonically all by themselves too. They come up with random chord progressions, melodies and rhythms too. As you could imagine there would be moments of rubbish but at the same time moments of genius! I know that when Jan Hammer was doing Miami Vice he had so much music to do he was into using devices to generate music overnight and he came in each day and picked out all the good bits and developed the cues from there.

Bristol_Jonesey

aspenleaf


Thanks for the reply Bob. I am able to do what you describe, but I'd also like to record the audio output of the VSTi as it is being used, instead of recording the midi, then bouncing it to a track.

This morning's simple question is - why?

Why do you feel the need for recordings just the audio, rendering any future editing of notes completely impossible?

Also, even with just the Midi recorded, you don't need to bounce it to audio afterwards, unless your pc is hopelessly underpowered and you need to free up resources.

my mornings simple question is why not? and why is sonar the only daw that i cant do this in?  
jeff youre spot on about reaktor. the only way i can capture this stuff in a show is by running a line out from the mixing board to a digital recorder or using reaktors built in recorder as you mentioned. 
why did 4'33 ever need to be recorded if every performance was different? 


for doing art installations with algorithmically generated sounds it can be necessary for arts funding as many institutions want to see the final work or have a recprd of it.


i loveworking with controlled randomness in reason and resampling textures which recording from vsts and combinators allows me to do. im a bit of a mad scientist though and delve deeply into experimental uses of software. 


if cake could get this feature and the ability to correctly route midi out from multiple soft synths it would be my only daw.

I don't know how well this would work, but I'd expect it to do what you're asking for...

If you don't already have a loopback function available, you can easily get one... then simply setup an extra audio track with the loopback as it's input and place it in record as well as the MIDI track...

That should work... Personally I see no need... Most plugins have plenty of MIDI capabilities to handle all things via recorded automation tho in many of them you have to setup which function will use which MIDI controller... Once that is done, everything you do in your performance should/will get recorded as MIDI... and then simply Freeze the MIDI track after recording and the audio track is done...

I guess there might be some plugins that have features that cannot be automated, but I somehow doubt this to be the case for most major plugins.... The down side is that there is a (unique) learning curve to establish many parameters as MIDI controlled and which CC# as each plugin has it's own method of dealing with assignments...

Keni

More power to you, if you can get this to work for you.

Each of our approaches are valid, we are a diverse community and what makes no musical sense to me may be somebody else's Bjork (swan and all).  :)

Random on, now is the time and the time is now to bling my song...  (Zeppified encouragement to the original poster) - have a blast.

Bob Bone

Paul P


You insert a free VST plugin recorder like the Voxengo Recorder then drag the file back into Sonar.

I'm not sure how useful it is to do this, but it's nice to be able to.

Guitar Rig has this function too, and many Sonar users will already have it.