• SONAR
  • SOFT SYNTH VS REAL SYNTH (p.4)
2006/07/05 00:52:21
mosspa
ORIGINAL: DSandberg

It is? I sure wanted to think so, but when I listened to Korg's online MP3 demos of the "virtual" Wavestation, it didn't sound even 1/10th as rich as the Wavestation EX currently sitting about three feet to my left. I was quite disappointed by those demos ... they seemed to be all about generic, electronic "beeps" and "boops" rather than the lush, evolving pads that the Wavestation was prized for. I'd much rather have heard the virtual version of some of the WS presets, for the sake of comparison.



Tell me what you want to hear and I'll gladly make you a short MP3 and send it to you. Better yet, send me a WS patch of your own unique design and tell me how to play it (or send a MIDI file).
2006/07/05 00:54:45
WhyBe
i think that the M1 softsynth can give the Triton a run for its money. With the improved dynamic range, the exponentially improved polyphony and multitimbrality, and use of, basically the same sound engine, the M1 softsynth can get very close to a Triton.


Comparing an M1 to a Triton????

I have an Emu E4 Platinum (hardware) and an Emulator X (software version of the Platinum) and they sound and play identically. Some aspects of the softsynth are better (more powerful filter section). Kudos to Emu for this accomplishment of recreating a RECENT and extremely powerful hardware unit..

I'm still waiting for the big three (or any softsynth manufacturer for that matter) to make something that competes sound and playability-wise with the "big boy" synths. I'm not talking about some synth that was made 10 or 20 years ago. Once again, I am talking about Motif, Triton, Fantom et al.


The Kurzweil K2xxx line is different in that all of the members were TRUE synthesizers. V.A.S.T. is what sets the Ks way above any other workstation.


Other TRUE synthesizers are Yamaha EX5, fully expanded Motif (your card of choice), Triton with MOSS board.
2006/07/05 01:06:14
mosspa
ORIGINAL: WhyBe

Comparing an M1 to a Triton????



Well, what does a Triton do that an M1 doesn't (taking into consideration that the M1 now has provision for full 16-voice multimbrality and almost unlimited polyphony. Oh, and that the M1 has a dramatically better s/n ratio and now has the same digital filter that the Triton has). So, where's the beef?
2006/07/05 01:08:22
WhyBe

ORIGINAL: mosspa

ORIGINAL: WhyBe

Comparing an M1 to a Triton????



Well, what does a Triton do that an M1 doesn't (taking into consideration that the M1 now has provision for full 16-voice multimbrality and almost unlimited polyphony. Oh, and that the M1 has a dramatically better s/n ratio and now has the same digital filter that the Triton has). So, where's the beef?


Is this all there is to a synth?
2006/07/05 01:14:51
mosspa
ORIGINAL: WhyBe

Other TRUE synthesizers are Yamaha EX5, fully expanded Motif (your card of choice), Triton with MOSS board.


What the hell males the EX5 a TRUE synthesizer. It just seems like a a glorified ROMpler to me. I don't know Motif, but if I had to guess it would be similar. Unless the MOSS board is me i can hardly bel;ieve that it would make a Triton a "REAL" synthesizer.
2006/07/05 01:21:03
mosspa
ORIGINAL: WhyBe

Is this all there is to a synth?


No, which is why i don't qualify ROMplers, independently of how glorified they may be with features, synthesizers. The Kxxx series is different because, while there are ROM samples, the actual engine that processes the sound is a very novel digital synthesizer. VAST makes all the difference. Similarly, the Wavestation also uses samples, but I also classify it as a true synth because the only thing ROMpler about is is the samples themselver=s. The wavesequencing and vectoring make it a true synth, independently of what the source of the sounds is.
2006/07/05 03:18:08
Rain
ORIGINAL: WhyBe

The fact of the matter is, there are no Triton, Motif, Fantom, K2600 type of softsynths available as of yet. Perhaps our DAW CPU's are a GHz or two away from that.


Agreed that developers tend to focus on vintage hardware synths that are discontinued and which the vast majority of us couldn't afford if we had the chance to stumble upon them anyway. There are also a few classic modern synths available as software - Access Virus, Disco DSP's Discovery which can import Nord Lead sysex... As for myself, I see no interest in a software version of synths like the Triton... They're as exciting as that Virtual Sound Canva thing....

Besides, I really don't think it's matter of CPU - some people run softsynths like Reaktor on a dedicated machine, building the most compex/uncompromising synths one could imagine.

Between softsamplers, which offer possibilities well beyond what you could dream of w/ hardware based units, and softsynths, which allow you to access mostly every classic synth or then to create any conceivable sound - from good old moog basslines to the most authentic piano samples that can be found - pretty much every thing is covered.
2006/07/05 05:13:37
WhyBe

ORIGINAL: mosspa

ORIGINAL: WhyBe

Other TRUE synthesizers are Yamaha EX5, fully expanded Motif (your card of choice), Triton with MOSS board.


What the hell males the EX5 a TRUE synthesizer. It just seems like a a glorified ROMpler to me. I don't know Motif, but if I had to guess it would be similar. Unless the MOSS board is me i can hardly bel;ieve that it would make a Triton a "REAL" synthesizer.


I will restrain myself and say, yes, the EX5 is a TRUE synth in every sense of the word (Analog modeling, Virtual Lead Synthesis, FDSP Synthesis, Sampling & Resampling). I won't get into an endless "my synth is more powerful than..." debate. Sonically, the EX5 smashes many synths. If you were into programming, you would know this. A Motif with the AN and VL card is similar. So is a Triton with MOSS card. Both to a lesser degree, though.
2006/07/05 05:24:44
michael japan
very interesting thread. I do not say anything here to disagree with anyone or to try to prove a point--I speak from personal experience and being a producer with clients and deadlines for years. Believe me, Roland, Yamaha, and Korg have bigger fish to fry.-plus they'd be shooting themselves in the foot at the moment to make a softsynth that competes with their keyboards that all cost over $2000. They still sell a lot of keyboards while most of the American/European makers have kind of drifted off into the past. I think they might possibly do something hardware--I mean look how the UAD1/Powercore took the world by storm. I always thought it would be nice to have a PCI card--hence hardware--that gives you the best of your bread and butter sounds, pads, strings--I think EMU tried it but you have to have their sound card to make it work I think from the research I did at the time. Plus, who wants an EMU module anyway? I sold my P2000 2 years ago for only a few hundred dollars--I never liked the sound of it anyway. Great for making pretend and copying, but no emulative sounds. I did like the EMU Ultra Series Sampler (which was actually an Ensoniq engine after the companies merged--an I used mostly Akai sounds) and I loved Ensoniqs ZR76 for the tones. Ditched my Roland XV-5080 as well-some nice stuff--but hey, music changed--people don't use those tones anymore. Plus, you can't really say that Yamaha and Roland are sitting on their laurels--they bought Steinberg and Cakewalk so in a sense they are developing softsynths--but they are Japanese--it's not so important for them to put their name on the label--they want the market, go home and sit on the floor of their tatami rooms overlooking their ponds andgardens and eat sashimi with their friends and family:)

What I do have is a Korg Karma which does thing I can't imagine a computer ever doing--but it is definitely much better as a live machine. So complex--amazing axe--I take it to all of my live gigs now because I can create long grooves on the spot that rock (if I rock that particular night:)

Back to soft synths--I don't miss external modules. I'll tell you what I use--but it's not cheap. First of all I'll tell you what I have bought that I don't use--Hypersonic 2--I was hoping it was the all in all solution to the big 3 keyboards but I was wrong. What I look for are sounds that you would emulate and the best of each is what I seek after. I would imagine sampletank is the same--came with my pro-tools system but I never even tried it out--I will someday--just need to finish some deadlines first. But actually, it was the same problem when buying keyboards. Ensonic had the best drums/strings....Yamaha had the best pianos/ELP, Korg had great pads/drums/elps (horrible pianos--I hated the M1 because I was more into making music sound like real instruments) but I do see why it became so popular--you could produce a whole song on the thing that sounded great----at the time. Try it now!!!!!

Kurzweil (young chang) had some delicious sounding pads ELP's and other things. I had to have about 5 modules and 5 keyboards to do what I wanted to do until I finally sold everything while I could still get something for them--I have a colleague that is going to have to pay to get rid of his gear--and it ain't cheap over here to get rid of metal. So here is what I use now and if I had time I would put it up against any of the external modules for a comparison.

Pads--Atmosphere. I thought nothing could ever touch the Roland D-70 Ghosties patch and some of the Triton string pads/bells/textures. But this synth is absolutely a must have. It is really rich.

Piano--Ni Akoustik Piano/PMI Bosendorfer 290/Giga Steinway/290. I still use my hardware P120 for composition and working out parts--can't beat the latency of a hardware piece--I am very sensitive even at 2.9ms.

Rhodes-NI Elektrik piano/Emagic EVP 73. Lounge Lizard is ok but a little harsh for me.

Organ-B4 v.II

Drums-I use a real drummer but have a lot of sample libraries for demos.

Bass-real bass or Bass Legends Library--Giga or Akai

Guitars-I use a real guitarist but have used patches for playing arpeggios from Yellow Tools Guitars--Giga.

Strings-Sonic Implants Symphonic Strings--and sometimes Atmosphere to fill them out. If I was doing symphonies I would be forced to hire out, but my genre doesn't really demand it--though it would definitely be nicer.

Wurlitzer-Karma--hardware. Haven't found anything I can stand yet that is a softsynth.

If I want to do something RNB, then I dig out one of my loop libraries and hook up the Karma.

Wow, I was supposed to be working!!!!! Thanks for the thread.

Michael



2006/07/05 05:29:29
WhyBe

ORIGINAL: Rain

...Besides, I really don't think it's matter of CPU - some people run softsynths like Reaktor on a dedicated machine, building the most compex/uncompromising synths one could imagine.


I'm going to check out Reaktor. Is this thing "quick" as a hardware synth though?


Between softsamplers, which offer possibilities well beyond what you could dream of w/ hardware based units, and softsynths, which allow you to access mostly every classic synth or then to create any conceivable sound - from good old moog basslines to the most authentic piano samples that can be found - pretty much every thing is covered.



A sample is not playing the real thing, of course. Especially when you introduce trying to control the sound in a similar way that the actual machine is controlled.
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