Eddie TX

john6448


For my particular uses, Sonar has made a marketing choice not to pursue VST3 or an improved Staff View, and it's choice has left me feeling that I may have hitched my wagon to the wrong DAW. It is what it is, and no amount of bickering is going to change it.

Have you sent a request to CW to implement these features?  The CTO has stated right here that customer requests are a primary driver of what they put in new releases.  It's apparent that most of us value the kinds of features coming now in X2 over things like VST3.  If you and others in your position would send enough requests to CW for any particular feature, your wishes might just be granted one of these days.  CW is just trying to keep the greatest number of customers happy within the constraints of limited resources, just as any decent company would do. 
 
No DAW (or product of any kind) can be perfect for everyone, so there will always be those who wish Sonar was just a little different.  It's not worth throwing tantrums over, it's just the way the world is.  You take what you can get and make it work.  But hey, if someone had shown you ten years ago what was possible with ITB music production today, wouldn't your mind have been blown?  We do live in amazing times, eh?

Cheers,
Eddie

Eddie,
 
First and foremost, you cannot base your Company position on the "feature requests" of a forum.
They should be considered in view of the WHOLE INDUSTRY.  Not given the ultimate weight of
what to implement.  This is merely common sense and good Business Practice.

VST 3 is an INDUSTRY...not social or political STANDARD...and, no matter how much Cake hates Steinberg,
they have been the drivers of this from the onset and you can rest assured that's not changing anytime soon.

I could go into a whole of detail, but, after reading these posts....
 
It would be pointless...

Cheers

cclarry

Noel,
 
This is a very unreasonable reply  - from the CTO especially.
Waves plugins rely on the VST 3 standard for some of their better functionality.
FabFilter Plugins rely on VST 3 standard as well, and most other Plugin manufacturers
and DAW's are supporting this format.


Really....really...really...who's being fooled here?

Fabfilter plugins all come as both vst2 and vst3 with no functional difference between them. They don't rely on vst3 at all.

I'm not quite sure why you are trying to undermine cakewalk at the moment, but it's just coming across as a personal rant now ...

Cheers

James

firefly9000


NEW VST 3 Features - from steinberg site.

Improved performance

Managing large plug-in sets and multiple virtual instruments on typical studio computer systems can often be difficult because of CPU performance limits. VST3 helps to improve overall performance by applying processing to plug-ins only when audio signals are present on their respective inputs. Instead of always processing input signals, VST3 plug-ins can apply their processing economically and only when it is needed. Multiple dynamic I/Os

VST3 plug-ins are no longer limited to a fixed number of inputs and outputs. Their I/O configuration can dynamically adapt to the channel configuration they’re inserted in, meaning that any VST3 plug-in can be surround-capable with true multi-channel processing. For example, all the new VST3 plug-ins in Nuendo 4 can work in stereo-mode when inserted into a stereo channel, but switch to 6 channels when inserted into a 5.1 channel. Each audio channel is processed independently. Interaction between channels depends on the type and design of the plug-in. In addition to their flexible audio bussing capabilities, VST3 plug-ins may also offer a dedicated event bus. Typically, this is a MIDI input for control/modulation but these busses are no longer restricted to MIDI standard only. Future plug-ins may replace the common MIDI interface with alternative methods of control. Activating/deactivating busses

A typical issue with current virtual instruments is their audio output bussing system and how they’re connected to the mixer after loading. Especially virtual samplers with multiple outputs often occupy more mixer channels than need. The VST3 interface offers the possibility to deactivate unused busses after loading and even reactivate those when needed. This cleans up the mixer and further helps to reduce CPU load. Resizable edit windows

VST3 introduces a new approach to plug-in GUIs though window resizing, allowing for extremely flexible use of valuable screen space. Sample-accurate automation

VST3 also features vastly improved parameter automation with sample accuracy and support for ‘ramped’ automation data, allowing completely accurate and rapid parameter automation changes. Logical parameter organization

The plug-in parameters are displayed in a tree structure. Parameters are grouped into sections which represent the structure of the plug-in. Parameters like “Cutoff” and “Resonance” could be grouped into a section called “Filter”. This makes searching for a certain parameters easier, such as on an automation track. This also allows assigning a group of parameters to a specific MIDI Channel input and audio output bus. Optional VST3/SKI combination

As a direct result of the modular interface design of VST3, the Steinberg Kernel Interface (SKI) can be combined with VST3 plug-ins. SKI is an additional SDK that allows extremely close integration of a plug-in with a Steinberg host application, and allows functions to be carried out almost from within the application. This extends to the ability to create tracks, copy, cut, paste or process events in the Steinberg host application. SKI is provided to selected industry partners upon request. VSTXML for remote controllers

Remote controllers for audio and MIDI software applications have become increasingly popular. With VSTXML, VST3 offers far more flexible control of VST plug-ins by remote controllers. Using the knobs and faders on the control surface, parameters can be recorded, renamed and edited in many ways. Parameters that cannot be edited can be routed for display purposes to the control surface, for example to show Gain Reduction on compressor. UTF16 for localized parameter naming

In VST3, all strings that can be displayed to the user are in Unicode (UTF16) format. Usage of this universal character base allows the host application to display characters in localized languages. No MIDI restriction for parameter value transfers

VST3 has a dedicated interface for event handling that carries a much wider range of functionality than standard MIDI events would be able to provide. This opens up a big range of opportunities for musical use cases with very high potential for innovative product design. For example with VST3 some controller events (for example, pitch) can be referred to a note event (using a note unique ID). This offers the possibility to e.g. modulate only a single note which itself is part of a chord. Audio inputs for VST instruments

The VST3 interface expands VST instruments by adding the ability to create audio input busses. As a result, audio data can be routed to an VST3 instrument. A synthesizer which has a built-in e.g. vocoder effect is able to process audio data coming in from other sources as well. Multiple MIDI inputs/outputs

Unlike with VST 2.x,, a VST3 plug-in can have more than only one MIDI input or one MIDI output at the same time. 64-bit processing

VST3 plug-ins are generally able to process audio data in 64-bit.

I referenced this earlier...the die hards who don't care, including the CTO, are going to argue the "unimportance" of this into the ground.

Time will tell....

James_S

cclarry

Noel,

This is a very unreasonable reply  - from the CTO especially.
Waves plugins rely on the VST 3 standard for some of their better functionality.
FabFilter Plugins rely on VST 3 standard as well, and most other Plugin manufacturers
and DAW's are supporting this format.


Really....really...really...who's being fooled here?

Fabfilter plugins all come as both vst2 and vst3 with no functional difference between them. They don't rely on vst3 at all.

I'm not quite sure why you are trying to undermine cakewalk at the moment, but it's just coming across as a personal rant now ...

Cheers

James

FabFilter Plugins, if using VST 3, would greatly benefit from it.  Just read the info...

dantarbill


I've had WaveLab 7 since it was first released.  It supports VST3 and includes a number of VST3 plugs.  I use WaveLab more regularly than I use SONAR (I'm afraid).  I have yet to have even opened a VST3 plug...or had a need to.
 
I think there's a much more compelling case for implementing ARA support than VST3 at this point...especially if your development resources are constrained.

I definitely agree with your last statement and I really hope that Cakewalk prioritizes ARA over VST3.  The Melodyne ARA integration in Studio One v2 makes a huge difference and I personally prefer Melodyne by far over V-Vocal.  I have used the VST3 versions of many plugins in both Wavelab 7 and Studio One v2, but honestly haven't really realized much, if any, benefit from it.  That said, there are compelling reasons to support  VST3  and I'm glad to see that Cakewalk is planning on adding support for it. 

The fail is strong in this thread.
 
The de-facto industry standard doesn't even support VST 2.4. or AU....
Now don't fall back on the 'most installed' b.s. That in no way quantifies actual work being done in the industry.

cclarry

James_S

cclarry

Noel,

This is a very unreasonable reply  - from the CTO especially.
Waves plugins rely on the VST 3 standard for some of their better functionality.
FabFilter Plugins rely on VST 3 standard as well, and most other Plugin manufacturers
and DAW's are supporting this format.


Really....really...really...who's being fooled here?

Fabfilter plugins all come as both vst2 and vst3 with no functional difference between them. They don't rely on vst3 at all.

I'm not quite sure why you are trying to undermine cakewalk at the moment, but it's just coming across as a personal rant now ...

Cheers

James

FabFilter Plugins, if using VST 3, would greatly benefit from it.  Just read the info...

I have the plugins - I don't recall seeing any functions that are only available in vst3. 

ccLarry and his VST3 fetish is about as tiresome as Silktone and his midi-cross-chatter obsession  


Poor old Noel having to come on and defend himself against this tripe. It's like Spike Milligan wrote "Einstein could stand in front of a class of 30 monkeys and lecture them for ten years but at the end of that time they'd still all be monkeys."


I own Nuendo5 in addition to Sonar. For fabfilter there is no difference except the VST3 ones put themselves into the dynamics folder automatically. Big Deal!

Linear Phase

cclarry

.......

NOT WISE...

Cheers!

"not wise?"  What happens when Cakewalk does add vst3?   Sonar is definitely Cubase's main competitor, so what do you think Yama/Stein is going to do?  
 
 

I HIGHLY, HIGHLY doubt this.  I love Sonar and all, but I have a strong feeling that Pro Tools, Logic, FL Studio, and probably even Abelton are all higher up on that list of competitors.  Maybe a couple others as well.  I think Sonar has a very small user base actually.  I very rarely encounter anyone in the professional world using Sonar.  I come across people using the others that I mentioned all the time.  Honestly, when I mention Sonar to most people I just get met w/ a blank stare, usually followed by a question as to why don't I use (insert other program here).  LOL!  I think some of you guys might need to get out a little more.

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk
]

cclarry


Noel,

If the VST3 implementation is "of such low importance" to Cakewalk...

THEN WHY HAS EVERY OTHER MAJOR DAW AND PLUG IN MANUFACTURER
(except NO TOOLS- RTAS) adpoted it and chosen to implement it...even without
a MAJOR release???

I'm really just curious...

Just becaue Cakewalk doesn't deem it important doesn't make it NOT IMPORTANT...

WOW...how CRAZY is that....???"

I'm happy to know it's in the pipeline...but, as always, Cake has FAILED to make
a pre-empitive strike at CURRENT technologies for the sake of their users...
instead choosing to focus and give us MORE feature improvements that have been
available in other DAWS for awhile....while touting their massive benefits...
and overshadowing the NEED, addressed by an INDUSTRY STANDARD API,
to implement such protocol in their software???

Why is it that ALL MANUFACTURERS, BUSINESSES, etc....play POLITICS...
and instead of saying...OOOPS...we'll fix it...
they play politics and say....

PAY NOT ATTENTION TO THAT MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!!

INSTEAD....LOOK OVER HEAR....

Blah...

Love the SOFTWARE...HATE THE BS...

Cheers!

>>but, as always, Cake has FAILED to make  pre-empitive strike at CURRENT technologies for the sake of their users... 

As always, really? How about being the first to support X64, supporting every single processor architecture, preemptive support for every version of Windows to name just a few. VST3 being lower importance not arbitrarily decided, as I outlined in my message. There are plenty of things we did in X2 that were way higher in the feature list that the vast majority of users would benefit from before VST3. We do features in response to the volume of customer requests. VST3 has been way at the bottom of that pile. 

Anyway I've said what I have to say on this topic so there is no point in beating it to death here. It has absolutely nothing to do with politics but everything to do with supporting the most immediate needs of our user base first, and making the best use of our engineering resources.

VST3 is a mandatory component for Melodyne's integration api. Having melodyne integration within Sonar Xx does seem like a sought after feature many would like to see. VST3 does give the end user more options plugin / hardware wise. The question is how much? NAMM will be interesting this year I believe to sort out some of the misconceptions of industry standards. For me personally, I get more functionality out of my Access Virus TI via VST3. Not a game changer in any regards, but options nonetheless.