SToons


keith

cclarry

One of the MAJOR benefits to VST3 is Sidechaining...
 

Which is implemented in many a VST2 plugin just fine and dandy... something waves refused to do.
 
 

 First of all, not "fine and dandy". There are very few professional compressors that will sidechain in Sonar. If it's all "fine and dandy" then you should have no trouble naming a dozen third party compressors that can sidechain in Sonar. Please do...name some. While you're at it, please name some third party professional Surround Sound plugins that will work in Sonar. On the other hand, several companies have been stating for a few years now that they will eventually use Cakewalk's "workaround" for sidechaining yet few have delivered.
 
Why should they? Why should other companies bust their butts and spend serious money to make plugins "Sonar compatable" when they can instead code for existing formats such as VST3 which is supported by:
FL Studio
Cubase
Nuendo
Adobe Audition
Presonus Studio One 2
Sony Acid
(that I'm aware of off the top of my head...)
 
Other major Daws support AU or TDM which offer essentially the same benefits of VST3:
Protools
Logic
MOTU Digital performer
Garageband
Spending money to code plugins -specifically- for Sonar is probably not a wise choice for any developer.

Also VST 3's are idle when no signal is passing through the plug.
Unlike VST2.x in which the VST is always operative and therefore
always using CPU resoursces... 

Which is something the host should be doing for you... not blindly passing zeros through an FX bin, then EACH PLUGIN INDEPENDENTLY DETERMINES WHETHER IT SHOULD PROCESS THE ZEROS. Here's an idea... don't pass zeros through a FX chain. Done.

 

Irrelevant comment - clearly the host, which is Sonar, is NOT doing the job you suggest it should as it continues to load down the CPU with plugins that are idle. Still boils down to a Sonar problem.
 
Sonar X2 is not looking good at all. I refuse to upgrade to X1 and X2 is even further out of the question as it stands. Very sad actually. A simple example is the fact that Sonar does not come with a single functional sampler, period. That is pathetic compared to other DAWs.
 
All the new included semi-functional trial version kid toys and they still haven't solved basic issues of functionality, another sign of dumping the pro demands to satisfy the hobbyist tweakers who love the toys under the Xmas tree but never actually use them. Oh well, if Cakewalk continues to chose to chase that market and neglect the basic needs of professionals then pros will continue to choose other products.

Hey SToons, there are plenty of "pros" who use SONAR. Your comments see a bit unfair regarding the usability of SONAR. The Bakers have solved the "basic issues of functionality" ages ago. If they had not, no one would be spending money on it. Yet today I witnessed many people (including myself) who were chomping at the bit to upgrade to X2 with enthusiastic pleasure. I hope you find what you are looking for. I sure found what I am looking for right here with Cakewalk and I couldn't be happier.  

What is a "professional" plugin? That is a new term to me. Plugins are plugins from my viewpoint. 

I have no dog in this fight.  I don't have a burning need for VST 3. Yet I think not supporting a growing protocol for the most popular plugin format is something that should be considered. It can't hurt to have support for VST 3. I wonder why CW has ignored it? I do know that CW has stated VST2,4 can do everything VST 3 can but that does not mean that any particular ability would be implemented under VST 2.4. At the same time I am not sure that all abilities in VST 3 will be implemented either. No one has actually shown that a real benefit for VST 3. So far everything being touted as exclusive to VST 3 is already available with VST 2.4. What some seem to disregard is its up to the developer just what features to include. I have VST 2.4 plugs that will stop processing when no signal is present. I have VST 2.4 plugs that can resize. I have VST 2.4 plugs that can side chain.

However I am sure at some point VST 3 will be required for all VST plugins. There is no point for a developer to write plugins in both formats. It would be far sighted  of CW to include VST 3 support.

Blogman


New VST3 features Improved performance Managing large plug-in sets and multiple virtual instruments on typical studio computer systems can often be difficult because of CPU performance limits. VST3 helps to improve overall performance by applying processing to plug-ins only when audio signals are present on their respective inputs. Instead of always processing input signals, VST3 plug-ins can apply their processing economically and only when it is needed. Multiple dynamic I/Os VST3 plug-ins are no longer limited to a fixed number of inputs and outputs. Their I/O configuration can dynamically adapt to the channel configuration they’re inserted in, meaning that any VST3 plug-in can be surround-capable with true multi-channel processing. For example, all the new VST3 plug-ins in Nuendo 4 can work in stereo-mode when inserted into a stereo channel, but switch to 6 channels when inserted into a 5.1 channel. Each audio channel is processed independently. Interaction between channels depends on the type and design of the plug-in. In addition to their flexible audio bussing capabilities, VST3 plug-ins may also offer a dedicated event bus. Typically, this is a MIDI input for control/modulation but these busses are no longer restricted to MIDI standard only. Future plug-ins may replace the common MIDI interface with alternative methods of control. Activating/deactivating busses A typical issue with current virtual instruments is their audio output bussing system and how they’re connected to the mixer after loading. Especially virtual samplers with multiple outputs often occupy more mixer channels than need. The VST3 interface offers the possibility to deactivate unused busses after loading and even reactivate those when needed. This cleans up the mixer and further helps to reduce CPU load. Resizable edit windows VST3 introduces a new approach to plug-in GUIs though window resizing, allowing for extremely flexible use of valuable screen space. Sample-accurate automation VST3 also features vastly improved parameter automation with sample accuracy and support for ‘ramped’ automation data, allowing completely accurate and rapid parameter automation changes. Logical parameter organization The plug-in parameters are displayed in a tree structure. Parameters are grouped into sections which represent the structure of the plug-in. Parameters like “Cutoff” and “Resonance” could be grouped into a section called “Filter”. This makes searching for a certain parameters easier, such as on an automation track. This also allows assigning a group of parameters to a specific MIDI Channel input and audio output bus. Optional VST3/SKI combination As a direct result of the modular interface design of VST3, the Steinberg Kernel Interface (SKI) can be combined with VST3 plug-ins. SKI is an additional SDK that allows extremely close integration of a plug-in with a Steinberg host application, and allows functions to be carried out almost from within the application. This extends to the ability to create tracks, copy, cut, paste or process events in the Steinberg host application. SKI is provided to selected industry partners upon request. VSTXML for remote controllers Remote controllers for audio and MIDI software applications have become increasingly popular. With VSTXML, VST3 offers far more flexible control of VST plug-ins by remote controllers. Using the knobs and faders on the control surface, parameters can be recorded, renamed and edited in many ways. Parameters that cannot be edited can be routed for display purposes to the control surface, for example to show Gain Reduction on compressor. UTF16 for localized parameter naming In VST3, all strings that can be displayed to the user are in Unicode (UTF16) format. Usage of this universal character base allows the host application to display characters in localized languages. No MIDI restriction for parameter value transfers VST3 has a dedicated interface for event handling that carries a much wider range of functionality than standard MIDI events would be able to provide. This opens up a big range of opportunities for musical use cases with very high potential for innovative product design. For example with VST3 some controller events (for example, pitch) can be referred to a note event (using a note unique ID). This offers the possibility to e.g. modulate only a single note which itself is part of a chord. Audio inputs for VST instruments The VST3 interface expands VST instruments by adding the ability to create audio input busses. As a result, audio data can be routed to an VST3 instrument. A synthesizer which has a built-in e.g. vocoder effect is able to process audio data coming in from other sources as well. Multiple MIDI inputs/outputs Unlike with VST 2.x,, a VST3 plug-in can have more than only one MIDI input or one MIDI output at the same time. 64-bit processing VST3 plug-ins are generally able to process audio data in 64-bit.

I read the first line and my eyes started to bleed.

Sylvan

Hey SToons, there are plenty of "pros" who use SONAR. Your comments see a bit unfair regarding the usability of SONAR. The Bakers have solved the "basic issues of functionality" ages ago. If they had not, no one would be spending money on it. Yet today I witnessed many people (including myself) who were chomping at the bit to upgrade to X2 with enthusiastic pleasure. I hope you find what you are looking for. I sure found what I am looking for right here with Cakewalk and I couldn't be happier.  

It was not my intent to suggest -no- pros use Sonar. I do myself, about a half of the time if I'm doing my own work. In the larger scheme of things though, it's a minor player from my experience. Of maybe 35 studios I've worked in over the past few years not one has had a useable copy of Sonar. In one studio, at a gamimg company, the house composer/sound fx guy used Sonar occasionally, mostly for VSTi's, but it was a personal copy and therefore off limits to me as I was a hired session player.
 
"Basic functionality" is related to personal needs. 8 years ago Surround Sound mixes were not as necessary or common but now a large component of end production, whether it be for commercials, video games, documentaries or otherwise, require surround mixes. Unfortunately for me Sonar has dropped the ball there requiring me to use multiple programs, unless I bail and choose another DAW. The same with notation. The same with audio editing. The same with included tools (samplers, synths etc.). At the moment several DAWs come with some pretty decent included samplers as well as libraries, Sonar on the other hand comes with many "teasers", or at least 8.5.3 did.
 
In my opinion, if Cakewalk spent as much time tweaking the audio engine and adding support for widely accepted standards, like support for VST3 and better movie clip integration (and my above points) as developing marginally useful tools then I would be more inclined to upgrade. For example, opening windows, opening/saving files, dragging things around, looping on the fly etc. often causes gaps or dropouts in playback. Have you ever used a program like SAW before? The audio engine is quite remarkable (and pricey). There is simply no comparison between the speed and audio stability of SAW and Sonar, everything you do responds faster in SAW. Loading files, moving things, editing audio, etc. Far less CPU usage and can play way more tracks/FX simultaneously before breaking up/dropping out. But it also has it's drawbacks.
 
This is not a simple issue. Consider that we invest in software but then continue to invest as it upgrades. Part of that requires "predicting the future" and having faith the program will grow in the same direction as you do. So I invest in Cakewalk Pro Audio up to ver 9, then onto Sonar 1. I didn't bother upgrading till version 4 as it didn't seem worthwhile or necessary. Next upgrade was to 8.5.3 and at the same time a bunch of high end plugins (Waves ver 7 as well as some NI stuff and sample libraries). Support for VST and surround sound are there so I was happy to upgrade. However, at the time VST3 etc. is starting to become more common and it seemed at the time, based on Cake's track record of staying pretty cutting edge, safe to assume they would eventually catch up to support at least ONE of the common formats - VST3, AU or something. Meanwhile DXi seems to start vanishing and now it appears even that will no longer be developed.
 
So if it appears now, after several years of waiting and watching other DAWs adapt, that Cakewalk has no intention of adapting to accomodate plugins like Waves, nor to offer better surround flexibility in terms of third party plugins, nor to improve notation, not to provide better included tools, then it is not looking good for me personally. The Waves bundle alone was worth several times what Sonar is. I can still use them in Audition (which cost me more money...) but that adds extra time and therefore costs more money. If I cut stakes now and move to a DAW that -already- offers the benefits I desire then it may cost more short term (new product versus upgrade price) but immediately I would have better tools for my needs and easier access to tools I already have. Now, in particular, seems like it may be the best time to dump Sonar. If I'm going to have to "re-learn" a program then I might as well start on one that appears to be following the direction that better suits me.
 
I'm not here to tell others what they should use but I am expressing my disappointment.
 
 

Oh my God!!!!!I have done many releases with 60 audio tracks,40 midi tracks and tons of plugs and instr whitout VST3.........!!!????it's a miracle!!!

GIM Productions


Oh my God!!!!!I have done many releases with 60 audio tracks,40 midi tracks and tons of plugs and instr whitout VST3.........!!!????it's a miracle!!!

Hunh. I wonder what that has to do with anyone else? Do your accomplishments magically affect my needs?

We had this discussion @ Renoise Forum...  You guys might interested in reading this?

http://forum.renoise.com/index.php?/topic/35415-support-vst-3/page__p__275759__hl__vst3__fromsearch__1#entry275759

SToons:"Hunh. I wonder what that has to do with anyone else? Do your accomplishments magically affect my needs?".I refer to the topic in general.In the specific i haven't a single problem with my third part plugs (no cracked) with PRO Sonar sidechain.The pros don't use many plugs.I have a perfect and tested conf and with my knowledge ,i need a few tools to finish my clients and mine prjs.When Cake decide to give us vst3 i will happy.Meanwhile i works and sleep very peaceful.Best.Roby

Blogman


New VST3 features Improved performance Managing large plug-in sets and multiple virtual instruments on typical studio computer systems can often be difficult because of CPU performance limits. VST3 helps to improve overall performance by applying processing to plug-ins only when audio signals are present on their respective inputs. Instead of always processing input signals, VST3 plug-ins can apply their processing economically and only when it is needed. Multiple dynamic I/Os VST3 plug-ins are no longer limited to a fixed number of inputs and outputs. Their I/O configuration can dynamically adapt to the channel configuration they’re inserted in, meaning that any VST3 plug-in can be surround-capable with true multi-channel processing. For example, all the new VST3 plug-ins in Nuendo 4 can work in stereo-mode when inserted into a stereo channel, but switch to 6 channels when inserted into a 5.1 channel. Each audio channel is processed independently. Interaction between channels depends on the type and design of the plug-in. In addition to their flexible audio bussing capabilities, VST3 plug-ins may also offer a dedicated event bus. Typically, this is a MIDI input for control/modulation but these busses are no longer restricted to MIDI standard only. Future plug-ins may replace the common MIDI interface with alternative methods of control. Activating/deactivating busses A typical issue with current virtual instruments is their audio output bussing system and how they’re connected to the mixer after loading. Especially virtual samplers with multiple outputs often occupy more mixer channels than need. The VST3 interface offers the possibility to deactivate unused busses after loading and even reactivate those when needed. This cleans up the mixer and further helps to reduce CPU load. Resizable edit windows VST3 introduces a new approach to plug-in GUIs though window resizing, allowing for extremely flexible use of valuable screen space. Sample-accurate automation VST3 also features vastly improved parameter automation with sample accuracy and support for ‘ramped’ automation data, allowing completely accurate and rapid parameter automation changes. Logical parameter organization The plug-in parameters are displayed in a tree structure. Parameters are grouped into sections which represent the structure of the plug-in. Parameters like “Cutoff” and “Resonance” could be grouped into a section called “Filter”. This makes searching for a certain parameters easier, such as on an automation track. This also allows assigning a group of parameters to a specific MIDI Channel input and audio output bus. Optional VST3/SKI combination As a direct result of the modular interface design of VST3, the Steinberg Kernel Interface (SKI) can be combined with VST3 plug-ins. SKI is an additional SDK that allows extremely close integration of a plug-in with a Steinberg host application, and allows functions to be carried out almost from within the application. This extends to the ability to create tracks, copy, cut, paste or process events in the Steinberg host application. SKI is provided to selected industry partners upon request. VSTXML for remote controllers Remote controllers for audio and MIDI software applications have become increasingly popular. With VSTXML, VST3 offers far more flexible control of VST plug-ins by remote controllers. Using the knobs and faders on the control surface, parameters can be recorded, renamed and edited in many ways. Parameters that cannot be edited can be routed for display purposes to the control surface, for example to show Gain Reduction on compressor. UTF16 for localized parameter naming In VST3, all strings that can be displayed to the user are in Unicode (UTF16) format. Usage of this universal character base allows the host application to display characters in localized languages. No MIDI restriction for parameter value transfers VST3 has a dedicated interface for event handling that carries a much wider range of functionality than standard MIDI events would be able to provide. This opens up a big range of opportunities for musical use cases with very high potential for innovative product design. For example with VST3 some controller events (for example, pitch) can be referred to a note event (using a note unique ID). This offers the possibility to e.g. modulate only a single note which itself is part of a chord. Audio inputs for VST instruments The VST3 interface expands VST instruments by adding the ability to create audio input busses. As a result, audio data can be routed to an VST3 instrument. A synthesizer which has a built-in e.g. vocoder effect is able to process audio data coming in from other sources as well. Multiple MIDI inputs/outputs Unlike with VST 2.x,, a VST3 plug-in can have more than only one MIDI input or one MIDI output at the same time. 64-bit processing VST3 plug-ins are generally able to process audio data in 64-bit.

 
Hi Blogman,
Thanks for the post but can you post that message again with paragaph? I m having trouble reading past your second line.
 
Thanks again
 
Sincerely
Choo Shi-Hwei, Malaysia

If vst3 does not consume CPU when no signal present that's really smart. I know another DAW that lets you automate bypass of effects to eliminate unnecessary CPU consumption. That always made sense to me. If in fact that's how Vst3 functions automatically that would seem like number 1 priority in any DAW.