Just out of curiosity, exactly what does butt sound like?

Butt sounds like this----> (_l_)

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THAT was hilarious!
worked all my life with the sound of butt, known well...!
lots of bottom end...

less highs, must be Sonar

Just to be clear... Are you listening to your exported audio on the same system, in the same room that you're mixing in?

Try this: Import your exported file into Sonar (perhaps on a new track in the very same project you just exported) and listen to it. Does it still sound like butt in comparison?

DavidJ

David,
 Did you ever solve this issue.  I'm asking because I am dealing with the same problem.  My mixes (just voice and acoustic guitar) sound great in Sonar  when playing through my RME Fireface 400 digital converter.  However, once I export to a wave (or whatever) file and play in Windows Media Player (using the computer's original sound card), it sounds like crap.  If I import it back to Sonar/RME Fireface system, it sounds great again.   It's not a problem with my computers sound card, since my David Wilcox CD (for example) sounds very good on it.   Could it be a matter of sub-optimal mixing and mastering (eq'ing and compression)? 
 
Jim
 
 
I need some advice on things to try when exporting my Sonar files to RIFF wave, MP3 or AIFF. Currently, I can get a pretty decent sounding mix when playing within the Sonar environment, but my .wav and .mp3 files sound terrible compared to it: somewhat muffled and bass heavy.

I'm using Sonar 3 Producer with Reason 3.0. Basically, I create tracks in Reason, then export as AIFF into Sonar. They sound incredible. Vocals and live inst. are added and sound great. Mix down occurs (export audio) and it sounds nothing like what I mixed.

My soundcard is M-Audio Delta Audiophile 2496. Would this be a soundcard issue? I'm not familiar with the differences between MME, ASIO and DX, but does one work better than the other? Could this be the culprit? Any other settings within SONAR I should be looking to tweak?

Help!! Thanks, everyone!

DJ

Make sure you export what you're listening. Route everything to Master Bus
and choose the Master Bus as the export source and make sure the signal in Master Bus does not clip.

Exporting is such a straightforward procedure that it requires extra effort to fail in it :o).

Kalle Rantaaho


Exporting is such a straightforward procedure that it requires extra effort to fail in it :o).

To be honest it's exactly that straightforward procedure you're talking about, which is the only procedure in Sonar I'm experiencing heavy troubles with. It seems to always not work out as I want it to, so there are often tracks missing or the mixdown ist cut off or whatsoever. No matter which settings I use. Maybe just have to figure that out little better...

Exporting is such a straightforward procedure that it requires extra effort to fail in it :o).

 
You are right, Kalle.  Exporting a file is, indeed, easy.  However, I'm not sure that the problem described by the person who initiated this thread ( David J) has anything to do with the exporting process, per se.   Rather, he may be describing the same problem I have been having. 
 
For clarity, let me first re-describe, in detail,  the problem.  I have 2 laptops.  I use laptop 1 to do my recording using the Sonar/Fireface RME system.  The sound card for Laptop 1 is the Fireface 400.  Laptop 1 has no other soundcard that I can access.    My second laptop (laptop 2) is for general use and has a typical sound card that might come installed with any laptop.   It is a Toshiba Satellite with harmon/kardon speakers.   A professionally mastered CD sounds fine on laptop 2 (even better through my headphones, of course).   Now let's go  back to laptop 1.    My tracks and mixes in Sonar - using the RME fireface sound card and my headphones-  sound fantastic.   Even the exported wav file played through Windows Media Player on laptop1 sounds pristine in its richness, warmth, and clarity.    However, that same wav file, which was recorded and mixed on the sonar/rme system (laptop1), sounds terrible when I play it on laptop 2.     It sounds terrible even if I use the same headphones.  The apparent degradation of sound is not subtle.  It really sounds as if someone stuffed wet tissue into my headphones.   Remember that laptop 2 does not have an upgraded sound card as does my laptop 1 (RME fireface 400); it only has the original sound card.   I should also empahsize that when a professionally mastered CD (or mp3, or whatever) is played on laptop 2, whether it be through the speakers or headphones, it sounds good.   Now, I think I know what my problem might be.  It's just a novice's theory, so I would appreciate the experts on this board to offer their insights and opinions.  But before I explain my theory, it might be helpful if I first describe what might be an analogous (and even more common) problem.
 
I have seen discussion board posts where my fellow recording novices bemoan the fact that their mixed and mastered files sound great on a nice speaker system but sound disproportionately worse on a cheaper system (such as laptop speakers).   Obviously, this is very reminiscent of my problem described above.  The reason for this problem is clear.  Typically what happens is that the novice has recorded, mixed, and mastered his tracks on a system that uses good speakers or headphones.   He gets a great sound and is excited about posting his mp3 for download.  Thinking that he has 'nailed' his mix, he then plays it on his laptop expecting to hear something almost as impressive.  The results are often very disappointing.   'What the f... is the problem' he says to himself.  'Did the file somehow get screwed up when I exported it?  It can't be my speakers or the soundcard, because my David Wilcox CD sound absolutely fine.'   As has been explained to me, the reason for this problem is due to faulty mixing and mastering.   First, one should avoid mixing and mastering on headphones.  The reason has to do with altered frequency perception.  Second, one should mix and master using near-field monitors.  These are speakers with a very flat frequency response curve and by listening in close proximity you minimize the interference from standing wave or reflected frequencies.  If you get a good sound on the near-field monitors, chances are that you will get a good sound on other systems as well.   Unfortunately, this last statement is not alway true.  Effective mixing and mastering is an art, and apparently it is very difficult to acheive professinal results with the typical home recording system.   For this reason, many home recording enthusiasts end up mixing on a variety of systems in an attempt to acheive something that sounds good on a variety of systems.   This frequently requires some measure of compromise. 
 
Ok, if you are still with me, I'd like to return to my original problem with laptop 1 and laptop 2.  Why do my mixes sound so different on the two systems if I am using the same headphones?   The soundcard on laptop 2 can't be defective since my store-bought CD's sound good.  The exported wav file can't be corrupted since it also sounds good on laptop 1.   Could the answer be analogous to the explanation in the preceding paragraph?  That is, is it possible that 2 different soundcards could have significantly different frequency response curves, just like speakers?  Therefore, if I mix using soundcard 1, maybe I will get a markedly different sound when I play it through a lesser quality soundcard (keeping the speaker system constant).  If this is the case, then is the solution to have my mixing and mastering done professionally or to do it myself on multiple systems, hoping to find a reasonable compromise?   Please discuss.    And thanks in advance for your help.
 
Jim
 
PS: In fact, after doing a significant amount of re-eq'ing using SoundForge on laptop 2, my exported wav file now sounds pretty good on laptop 2.   Furthermore, it still sounds good on laptop 1, though not as good as before.  Do we need global quality standards for soundcards?  Is anyone else struggling with this issue?
 
 
 

You write a lot but you leave out  info that could be important, like sample rates and bit depths of the files you talk about, as well as the levels of the Master Bus and the resulted audio. Also is the file dithered or not when exporting in the RME-system etc. A little snappier problem description would be easier to follow.

OTOH, this could be just a normal case of a mix translating poorly.

You say "degradation of sound is not subtle". That sounds weird. Are you really talking about degradation of sound, like distortion, hiss, crackles, or just that balance of bass, treble, vocals etc are different, that the mix does not work. It's 99 % sure that a integrated soundchip can play back
a 44,1/16  wav so well that you hardly hear a difference comparing to a top notch soundcard.

I find it impossible to believe it could be a question of radically different frequency curves, because with whatever decent soundcard you can mix and master audio that sounds good on any reproduction system - hi-fi, ghetto blaster or car stereos. The important variable in this case could be the headphone amp of laptop #2. I'd like to know how the mix sounds on different sound systems. But yes, like any sound systems, the soundcards (and headphone amps)  can sound different, but you say  #2 sounds terrible, and that I find hard to understand, unless, as mentioned, it's a normal case of a mix translating poorly, and you are not yet gotten familiar to the phenomenon.

Forget laptop 2, and make a mix with #1 that does translate well, ie. sounds good in car, hi-fi, etc. etc. Then play it in #2.

How does the wav sound using the onboard soundcard (and headphone output) of laptop #1? You say there "is no other soundcard you have acces to", but is it really so? I've never heard of a laptop with no soundcard.

I have never in my life read a post in which a person is surprised that the mix doesn't sound good through laptop speakers, but I've read thousands about mix sounding terrible on any different proper soundsystem than the one it was mixed with.

That's actually what I suggest/ask the OP as well. How does the wav sound in other soundsystems, outside the computer?

I have a set of Sony Hi-fi headphones. Anything I mix sounds beautiful through them, no matter how bad the mix sounds through other soundsystems.

OK. Now I wrote a lot - and only speculations :o)

The only time I've had a bounce that sounded different than its Sonar session is when I've had all tracks going to a master bus (which points to output 1-2) then mistakingly left one track going directly to 1-2 (bypassing the master bus processing). 

It might also be worth pointing out...

Sometimes you STRIKE OUT on a mix.  Same preformers, same gear, same person mixing but still very different outcome.  Could be due to different freqs, the arrangment itself , different conversion, or a mistake made by the mixer. 

Kalle,

Thanks for taking the time to wade through my post.   My post ended up being long because I was trying to clearly describe the issue.  I guess it backfired.   I will try to clarify some points that you raise.   However, you raised a lot of questions, so this might be another long post.  My apologies in advance.

You write a lot but you leave out  info that could be important, like sample rates and bit depths of the files you talk about, as well as the levels of the Master Bus and the resulted audio. Also is the file dithered or not when exporting in the RME-system etc.

1. problem is independent of common sample rates and bit depths.
2. Master vol levels about -10 db.  No clipping in final file.
3. Dithering used only if converting to 44.1/16 from tracks recorded at higher rates and depth.  problem is independent of dithering mode.

You say "degradation of sound is not subtle". That sounds weird. Are you really talking about degradation of sound, like distortion, hiss, crackles, or just that balance of bass, treble, vocals etc are different, that the mix does not work.

I don't think that it is a true degradation of sound.  I suspect that I am missing some 'secret sauce' in the mixing process.  I am not sure though.  That's why I posted my question.  That's also why I used the word 'apparent' in my description ('The apparent degradation of sound is not subtle.  It really sounds as if someone stuffed wet tissue into my headphones'.)  There is no crackle or hiss.   Also, as I stated in my prior post, the exported wave file sounds excellent when played on Windows Media Player through the RME sound card (again, using the headphones - or good speakers, for that matter).

It's 99 % sure that a integrated soundchip can play back
a 44,1/16  wav so well that you hardly hear a difference comparing to a top notch soundcard.

Another reason for my last post was to see if anyone else has noted a significant reduction in sound quality when comparing a very good sound card to a cheaper one, like an onboard laptop card (while keeping other variables, like the speaker system or headphones constant).   So, your viewpoint on this is interesting and useful.  Thanks.  I don't have enough different sound systems to adequately assess this.  Of course, if your assessment is correct, that would kill my theory: that an excellent sounding mix done while using an excellent sound card might  sound disproportionately worse when played through a lesser quality sound card.

Would you agree, however, that an excellent sounding mix which was achieved while listening through an excellent speaker system could possibly sound disproportionately worse when  played through a somewhat lesser quality speaker system (let's assume the sound card was held constant)?   And, if so, would the reason most likely be related to poor mixing and mastering?  If your answer is again, 'yes', then I wonder if an analogous rationale could be used to explain my observation that I get disproportionately worse sound when I play my wave  file through a lesser quality sound card (while using the same headphones). 

I find it impossible to believe it could be a question of radically different frequency curves, because with whatever decent soundcard you can mix and master audio that sounds good on any reproduction system - hi-fi, ghetto blaster or car stereos.

I have been told that unless the mixing and mastering is done by a professional, the audio often sounds bad when played on a system different from the one on which it was initially mixed and mastered.  I think that this is usually attributed to differences in the frequency response curves of the speaker systems.  My question is whether the difference in the quality of the sound cards could also contribute significantly to this phenomenon.  

The important variable in this case could be the headphone amp of laptop #2.

I hadn't thought of that.

I'd like to know how the mix sounds on different sound systems.

  Me too.  

But yes, like any sound systems, the soundcards (and headphone amps)  can sound different, but you say  #2 sounds terrible, and that I find hard to understand,

  Me too.   

unless, as mentioned, it's a normal case of a mix translating poorly, and you are not yet gotten familiar to the phenomenon.

That's my theory, but I'm not sure.

Forget laptop 2, and make a mix with #1 that does translate well, ie. sounds good in car, hi-fi, etc. etc. Then play it in #2.

I'll try it.

How does the wav sound using the onboard soundcard (and headphone output) of laptop #1? You say there "is no other soundcard you have acces to", but is it really so? I've never heard of a laptop with no soundcard.

The laptop was custom assembled by ADK Audio for use with Sonar and the RME fireface unit.  An onboard soundcard was either not included (I'm fairly sure) or it was disabled.  I cannot find an onboard sound card through the Windows hardware management program.  I think the ADK people told me that they wanted to make sure there would be no conflict between sound cards.  I will confirm.

I have never in my life read a post in which a person is surprised that the mix doesn't sound good through laptop speakers, but I've read thousands about mix sounding terrible on any different proper soundsystem than the one it was mixed with.

I don't think I said that I am surprised that the mix sounds worse through laptop speakers.   I am surprised, however,  that my mixes sound disproportionately worse when played on my general use laptop (the one without the RME sound card) while using the same headphones that I mixed with.   Also, others have posted that their mixes sound disproportionately (ie, surprisingly) worse when played through speaker systems of lesser quality.   Responses to these posts have explained that this disappointing result is usually due to suboptimal 'mixing and mastering'.   That is an explanation that I think I understand - at least to some extent.

That's actually what I suggest/ask the OP as well. How does the wav sound in other soundsystems, outside the computer?

Using the headphones, the wav file sounds great on the laptop with the RME soundcard.  It also sound great when using the near-field monitors on the RME laptop.   It sounds like crap on my other laptop with the built-in sound card (using the headphones, the near-field monitors, and of course the built-in laptop speakers).  I have not tested it on any other system.  Also, sorry - what does 'OP' stand for?

Again, thank you very much, Kalle, for your patient assistance with this frustrating problem.   If I cannot resolve this issue, maybe I could email you a couple of short test files that would more clearly illustrate what I'm dealing with.  I could email you a bundled sonar file and the corresponding wav file. 

Thanks again,

Jim