Kalle Rantaaho


But aren't all these "SONARs strengths" that you're listing available in all major (and many minor) DAWs?? IMO they are just features most DAWs have, not in any way SONAR-specific.

Good point. However, this points to the question, do I really need Sonar?
 
I don't want to be a producer, an engineer, basically all I want is to write songs & produce demos. Recently I've been playing with a version of Live8 Lite (I got it many years ago, when I bought my MBox.) Just messing around with it, looks like all I really need (to replace my MV-8800).
 
I can rewire that into Sonar 5 & track my guide track, then record everything into Sonar 5.
 
However, if I upgrade to Sonar X2 & the matrix suffices, I won't have to rewire anything. (I've never rewired anything before in my life, but it can't be too difficult right?) 

chuckebaby

vintagevibe

chuckebaby


loops, loops are a songwriters best friend, 

Real songwriters don't depend on loops.  

not for a final product, just for getting foundation of a song down.
I don't use use loops in my music, but I do create foundations of songs around hooks,
what is a hook, its a loop basically isn't it ?
 
I do though on the other hand think there are many great musicians out there that do use loops.
so for you to say, "real musicians don't use loops, that is thin and weak, shallow even.
 
an artist is an artist , loops may help them get to where they want to go.
like I said, I don't use loops but that is non sense to say real musicians don't use loops.
I used to think like that, that's narrow minded.
 
hope i cleared this up for you 
 
good luck with that  :)

I didn't say "real musicians don't use loops".  I said real songwriters don't depend on loops.  I'm not against loops in all situations but if you are a songwriter and you get your chord changes from loops it is dishonest and indicates a lack of actual songwriting skill.  If you, as a songwriter, come up with your own melody and chord changes loops can be beneficial in producing but people are taking whole chord sequences from loops and saying they "wrote it".  If you create music by jamming over loops and then slicing and dicing that is not really songwriting.  It doesn't necessarily mean you are not an artist, just not a songwriter.  Just my opinion.

Nothing gets my loop writing juices flowing like the "gap" I hear when I adjust the loop point in SONAR.

If I do it in time it can work out ok... but I think getting that gap to stop sounding like a gap is another one of those improvements I look forward to in SONAR upgrades. I think that could really help people who write songs while trying out loop ideas.

best regards,
mike

If I find loops that perfectly realize the rhythm patterns or melodies or whatever I image in my mind, I'll use them without feeling guilty because I can simply save time (I consider myself a real songwriter). The thing is, it's very unlikely to find one (I've never found one) or it's going to take a long time to find it so it's much faster to create it myself. 

When ever I look at sheet music I often see a couple loops. They are usually labeled with names like verse 1, verse 2, chorus etc.

It's no wonder that people developed software that works with loops... cyclical song forms have almost always been part of music.

vintagevibe

chuckebaby

vintagevibe

chuckebaby


loops, loops are a songwriters best friend, 

Real songwriters don't depend on loops.  

not for a final product, just for getting foundation of a song down.
I don't use use loops in my music, but I do create foundations of songs around hooks,
what is a hook, its a loop basically isn't it ?

I do though on the other hand think there are many great musicians out there that do use loops.
so for you to say, "real musicians don't use loops, that is thin and weak, shallow even.

an artist is an artist , loops may help them get to where they want to go.
like I said, I don't use loops but that is non sense to say real musicians don't use loops.
I used to think like that, that's narrow minded.

hope i cleared this up for you 

good luck with that  :)

I didn't say "real musicians don't use loops".  I said real songwriters don't depend on loops.  I'm not against loops in all situations but if you are a songwriter and you get your chord changes from loops it is dishonest and indicates a lack of actual songwriting skill.  If you, as a songwriter, come up with your own melody and chord changes loops can be beneficial in producing but people are taking whole chord sequences from loops and saying they "wrote it".  If you create music by jamming over loops and then slicing and dicing that is not really songwriting.  It doesn't necessarily mean you are not an artist, just not a songwriter.  Just my opinion.

so now your not against loops in "all situations" ?
so if you use a little bit of loops, you ARE real songwriter, or is it if you only use 20% loops in your song then your ARE NOT a real songwriter ?
where is this imaginary line you have drawn to certify real songwriters from the non real songwriters ? and did you obtain this info from WIKI ?
 
way to change your story after insulting half the people on this forum.
 
you tried to single me out by insult me, but guess what....
 
Fail.
 
 

I do create my own loops - really just midi clips that I can extend out and copy/cut/paste wherever in the song - just to get the basic flow together.

This is particularly true with drum clips.  I create them in Step Sequencer, with basic rhythmic content, but no fills or any of that.  They just allow me to get a sense of overall feel in a verse or musical passage or whatever.  I then go back and make real drum tracks.

Anyways, it is quite true that most of the DAW choices do a lot of the same functions, some do things differently, and some work flows of some folks fit the general flow of different DAW software differently.  It's largely personal choice there.

I would like to add that even if it is just for demo purposes, one should be able to balance cost and quality - to produce the best sounding demo with the software at hand, and Sonar is a pretty good balance all the way around.

Even if you are not an engineer, and do not want to become one, having quality tools and the ability to produce quality sound is still well worth it.

Try the 30-day demo download of X2a, and see what you think, in terms of it aiding your work flow in song writing.  It will not come with all of the plugins, but the audio engine is the same, and it does come with a few things, from which you can draw your own conclusions of it being worth investing in.

Bob Bone

The term "songwriter" is kinda hard to define. 
Is a songwriter a "composer'? 
Is a songwriter a "musician" ?
Can a drummer who doesn't write lyrics be a songwriter? 

But, anyhow, I do call myself a "songwriter" from time to time and over the years I have "composed" close to 60 "songs". Some are instrumentals. On top of that I wrote radio Jingles for a few years. ( are those songs?? no they are Jingles) 

Back when, all you needed was a guitar or piano and a tape recorder. That was all it took to make a "Song Demo" to submit to a record label or to your band mates. 

Things have changed and music has changed. Thanks to software we now have music ( songs) that can be made by non-musicians.  

Most of this software has evolved along those lines. Sonar is used by a lot of old school musician/songwriters/performers like me but I would  hazard a guess that the majority of users are more the producer types and people with very limited musicianship. This is fine. 
The only difference is that I could record a whole album or movie score without software, the others cannot. But software has made my life easier too ( I think?) 

So to me the real question would be: 

What tools does Sonar offer the Traditional Composer musician.  
What tools does Sonar offer the Modern Producer non musician.   

vintagevibe



I didn't say "real musicians don't use loops".  I said real songwriters don't depend on loops.  I'm not against loops in all situations but if you are a songwriter and you get your chord changes from loops it is dishonest and indicates a lack of actual songwriting skill.  If you, as a songwriter, come up with your own melody and chord changes loops can be beneficial in producing but people are taking whole chord sequences from loops and saying they "wrote it".  If you create music by jamming over loops and then slicing and dicing that is not really songwriting.  It doesn't necessarily mean you are not an artist, just not a songwriter.  Just my opinion.

So if I sold a song to a record company, & they changed the chord changes, they changed the instrumentation, the phrasing.... what did they pay me for?
 
Black Label Society made a remake of "I Never Dreamed" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74iaSzNQ6X4) nothing like the original https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCLeJJX65XA ..... who wrote that song?

...but if you are a songwriter and you get your chord changes from loops it is dishonest and indicates a lack of actual songwriting skill.

 
These discussion are always fun.   
 
Scenario 1: I write a blues song using standard 12 bar I IV V changes.
 
Scenario 2: I write the same blues song using loops that happen to be standard 12 bar I IV V changes.
 
What's the difference?