What would be nice to have in Sonar is the ability to put chord changes rather than just pitch in a marker. (or course it would only work with MIDI).

One could then play, say a MIDI piano pattern of a few bars, make a groove clip, loop it and experiment with chord changes. Even if you have the chops I suggest that being able to mess around with the chord sequence like this could suggest different results than simply playing the changes.  

Of course if you really want that function there is always Toontrack's EZ keys.

vintagevibe


@ pbognar

“ could be wrong, but perhaps some people are irriated by people assembling commercially available loops and calling themselves songwriters.”

This is rampant but of course not everywhere.
 

“How about this: if someone uses a very small bit of a commercially available loop, which no one would recognize as being a loop, and then assembles the loop material into a song which blows you away, does it mean that they are not a legit song writing?”

 

“What about people who use BIAB - they enter the chords, and BIAB poops out an arrangement.  If it sounds great, and you like the song, then what?”

If BIAB creates the chords and the arrangement and the “writer” creates the melody it is a collaboration but since it is not required to give credit to BIAB the “artist” will take all the credit as song writer when he/she clearly is not the only “writer”. It’s an accepted form of plagiarism.

“Audio / MIDI loops, BIAB, samples can all be sources of inspiration or place holders until the song is completed.”

No problem with that.

“If John Lennon relied on loops or BIAB to help him write "A Day In The Life", why would I care?”

He didn’t and therefore is the sole author of "A Day In The Life”.

“Doesn't the songwriter, assembler, or whatever you want to call them get any credit for determining what sounds good?”

Production credit, not songwriting credit.

“It all comes down to what the completed song sounds like and how it is embraced by the listener.”

Whether or not the song is good or bad - if someone didn’t write it they shouldn’t take credit for it.

“Some people need a rhythm to get them going.  Some need chord changes, melody, or a lyric or title.  Some people dig synth sounds - case in point - Joe Zawinul - RIP, said he was often inspired by a synth patch.”

Zawinul never released a synth patch and called it a song.  You are confusing all technology with depending on loops as the basis for a song.  If all the chord changes and rhythm came from someone else’s loop and you just jam over it you are not a songwriter.  If you come up with a great melody over it you are a collaborative songwriter who is disingenuously claiming all the credit.  My original statement was “real songwriters don’t depend on loops” in response to the statement “loops are a songwriter’s best friend”.  That doesn’t mean they can’t use loops or can’t be inspired by loops but if they are your best friend it is likely that you are following the trend of allowing technology to create that which you take credit for creating.  People writing EDM stuff are often using tons of loops and sampling other’s songs and then slicing and dicing.  They may be very creative artists and come up with great stuff but that doesn’t necessarily make them “songwriters”.

@vintagevibe


Great discussion, but I can see now that we may have hijacked the OP's thread.  Our discussion belongs downstairs because we are not helping folks with their practical use of of Sonar X2a (or b) and their efforts to write songs.


If one can't write a song in X2a, then there is another problem at play.  X2a has tools to assist with creativity as well as produce a finished product.

Fascinating how many diferent approaches are used for writing a song.  I am interested in the loop discussion because I haven't used any commercial loops as yet, but would like to, not for songwriting, but rather for production, but haven't yet figured out how to do it.
 
I start my process with lyrics, then figure out melodies and chord changes to work with those lyrics.  Then I enter it into a notation program (MuseScore) in lead sheet form, after which I save it as a MIDI file, then export it into an arranging program (I use Jammer Pro, not BIAB) for production purposes in order to get the instrumentation.  I then save that as a MIDI file and export it into Sonar to improve the instruments and to add a vocal.
 
Here is my problem:  What I wind up with sounds pretty good, but not CONTEMPORARY.  So I would like to use some of the very current commercial music loops that are available as an addition or substitution for some of my original tracks to get a more contemporary sound. 
 
BUT, while these commercial music loops typically will adapt to key or tempo, they will not conform to the chord progressions that I have already written.  Does anyone have any experience in using loops when you have already written the song?
 
I believe it may be possible to change the chords in individual measures by the use of markers (haven't tried that), but I think that is quite a laborious process.  Any other ideas?
 
Thanks.........Don

dscoyne


Fascinating how many diferent approaches are used for writing a song.  I am interested in the loop discussion because I haven't used any commercial loops as yet, but would like to, not for songwriting, but rather for production, but haven't yet figured out how to do it.
 
I start my process with lyrics, then figure out melodies and chord changes to work with those lyrics.  Then I enter it into a notation program (MuseScore) in lead sheet form, after which I save it as a MIDI file, then export it into an arranging program (I use Jammer Pro, not BIAB) for production purposes in order to get the instrumentation.  I then save that as a MIDI file and export it into Sonar to improve the instruments and to add a vocal.
 
Here is my problem:  What I wind up with sounds pretty good, but not CONTEMPORARY.  So I would like to use some of the very current commercial music loops that are available as an addition or substitution for some of my original tracks to get a more contemporary sound. 
 
BUT, while these commercial music loops typically will adapt to key or tempo, they will not conform to the chord progressions that I have already written.  Does anyone have any experience in using loops when you have already written the song?
 
I believe it may be possible to change the chords in individual measures by the use of markers (haven't tried that), but I think that is quite a laborious process.  Any other ideas?
 
Thanks.........Don

I think when you've already written the song, you just have to use brute force trial and error to find a commercial loop that will a) fit harmonically and b) add something positive to the song. But it's in these circumstances that you sometimes find the most unlikeliest loops working in your tune. Like a horn phrase that's played around a G major chord, but sounds great over your D minor. Or a keyboard riff in 4/4 that adds polyrhythmic interest when looped in your 3/4 song. Or something that has little harmonic relationship to your tune but sounds great in an "outside" kind of way. Sometimes you end up having to experiment with transposing a loop to all keys & various tempos to find such a happy accident. 

Not to further complicate things, but, you could also take Rex loops and rearrange the order of the individual slices to better suit the song.  This is particularly useful for drum loops since pitch is usually not an issue. 

pbognar

“If John Lennon relied on loops or BIAB to help him write "A Day In The Life", why would I care?” He didn’t and therefore is the sole author of "A Day In The Life”.

 
McCartney wrote the middle, it was originally a completely separate song.  And the Beatles created and used their own loops.
 
Neither here or there, no one I know writes the same way and I don't think you can criticize anyone's process.  I use RMX drum loops on everything I do, but each are significantly altered/edited.  I create groove clips so I don't waste time playing a difficult riff when I'm trying to flesh out ideas - all I try to do is not get bogged down by the gazillions of choices we all have.
 
Then I try to get opinions and shape from there.

declan

pbognar

“If John Lennon relied on loops or BIAB to help him write "A Day In The Life", why would I care?” He didn’t and therefore is the sole author of "A Day In The Life”.

 
McCartney wrote the middle, it was originally a completely separate song.  And the Beatles created and used their own loops.
 
Neither here or there, no one I know writes the same way and I don't think you can criticize anyone's process.  I use RMX drum loops on everything I do, but each are significantly altered/edited.  I create groove clips so I don't waste time playing a difficult riff when I'm trying to flesh out ideas - all I try to do is not get bogged down by the gazillions of choices we all have.
 
Then I try to get opinions and shape from there.

I can also agree, George martin used a lot of loops he made especially for the reel.

I find Sonar to be totally useless for me with my style of songwriting - which primarily entails me sitting along in a quiet place in the evening with a guitar in hand and letting the creative juices flow. When I get inspired and a song idea emerges, I record a quick run through of it with the voice recorder app on my iPhone.

Every time I have tried to write by sitting down at the computer with Sonar and messing with drums loops and synth pads, nothing useful or inspired ever comes out of it. I don't think I have ever written a good song that way.

Everyone's different, though.

For songwriting....I can't see any benefit Sonar has that other DAW's don't unless Sonar compliments your working style. 


Just to jump in on the 'what constitutes a song writer' discussion..... It is of course anyone that writes a song. Its degree of originality can be discussed later.

Bibs

If you are not talking just about istrumentals or dance music then I would recommend Masterwriter for songwriters and poets: http://masterwriter.com/songwriters.html it has a simple recorder but the songwriting tools are STRONG.

IMO,

J