I just posted a link on another thread just yesterday about benchmark tests done using sonar and widows 8 the tests don't lie, sonar x2 uses less resources on windows 8.

I like Win8x64 just fine...   
And this isn't intended to be argumentative...
But I can tell you from much experience (and numerous other well-respected DAW builders agree), that X2 doesn't see major performance gains under Win8 vs. Win7.
We've compared side-by-side.
Across numerous current-generation builds, X2 performance is nearly identical under both Win7 and Win8.

My posts is based on using and studying MS's OSs going back to the DOS days.  
Yep I hear ya - that probably goes for most of us here! 

I find it weird that you should be struggling with anything when all the information is fully available to you. Nor do I understand your requirement that MS provide the old start menu for you. You make it sound as if MS can't change their OS to make it better for more than just desktops. 
But, that's just the point, all the information is not fully available to me.  Hence, the discussion here.  I only had it confirmed though this thread that 'Windows desktop UI will likely go away completely soon', that's a partial quote from Cakewalk within this very thread - I didn't know that, the topic is certainly being discussed out on the web with great fervour!  And frankly I'm alarmed that the desktop UI will likely go because I like the Windows desktop UI and I'm fairy sure that it played some part in Microsoft naming the OS 'Windows', It's kind of 'Windows' by design isn't it? 

You project into the future about what could happen when there is really no way to know what the future will bring. We can be sure that the need for the sort of app that CW develops is not going to disappear. Mobile apps as such will find a place but this does not mean the sort of app pros need and use will be rare.
Yeah, absolutely, we all project in to the future and discuss, ponder, etc it's natural and perfectly OK to talk about this stuff, no NDAs being broken here.  I've personally got quite a lot of good info from this thread, that's why I started the initial discussion.  I say 'brilliant' the forum works. 

I look at the situation with MS not including a start menu as givening me more control.  I can now choose just how I want my system to startup and what screen I want to show first.  I now have the ability to use third party add ons that will customize my desktop just the way I like it. 
OK but when I need to go and find a 3rd party app just so that I can run my other apps within a window in an operating system called 'Windows', Mmmm I'm not so sure this could be construed as giving me more control at all.   But look we're not at that point yet, remember windows 8 still has a desktop UI, future versions will likely not have; that's when it'll get interesting. 

I'm no longer stuck with what MS offered if I choose to use those add ons. Its no different than its always been really.  We have always had the ability to use all sorts of third party add ons as well as tweaking the OS itself. 
It WILL be different though...lol   It would appear that future versions of Modern Windows will no longer have a Desktop UI in which to run certain apps in a windowed mode and serve as an open 'windowed' desktop environment. 

As to this tread getting back to MS so they know what the members are posting, that seems a bit hopeful with no possibility of MS caring one wit what is said here. This is a forum about Sonar not about the OS. 
Cakewalk are Microsoft partners and cakewalk have directly responded within this thread, the feedback on key topics will get back to Microsoft one way or another. Do you think that cakewalk don't speak with Microsoft? It would be very remiss of Cakewalk not to ensure that Microsoft are made aware of the user feedback on key topics at their various progress/technical meetings?  Cakewalk are 100% dependent on Microsoft to get it right or it may start to impact their business also.

What I would really like to do is put your mind at ease that you wont be forced to adopt anything you don't wish to. Nor will Sonar go away anytime soon. You can work with Windows 8 just as you have with past MS OSs. 
The response by Cakewalk within this thread has done a lot to reassure me of the continuity of their product in relation to running it within the current and future MS Windows environments, in whatever shape or form that it may develop.  So yeah Cakewalk will Function, of that I'm 100% certain.  But if windows on the Desktop develops in such a way that it gives desktop users a compelling reason to explore other operating systems then guess what, Cakewalk also start losing some of it's clients, so I'm sure you'll agree, there's a little bit of vested interest here to make sure Microsoft understand the challenges ahead.  Especially when your product solely dependents on Microsoft's road-map.

If portability is the main thing pushing current development and you combine that with cloud computing,then maybe Microsoft has decided that it'll cater to the 99% of users and the other 1% (for example heavy daw users) be damned.

What would Microsoft care if audio professionals could no longer do their jobs ?

We currently use Windows because that's what Sonar comes on, but if it were to use Unix I'd be more than happy to switch to that.

I can always surf the net on a cheap windows device.

+1 
I see Win 8 as a major transition for Microsoft - like Windows 95. Integrated touch and mobile support built in to the core OS is a huge leap that prepares them for the future. The bottom line is the problems that people are getting so strung up about are the weaknesses with the UI integration of the modern UI vs desktop where you are forced to use one or the other. It looks like they are working on improving that in the next version and I expect it will get better in the next OS release.
As anyone knows in the software industry there is no such thing as a perfect release where everyone will unanimously love it. It gets even worse when you change the core user interface. SONAR X1 anyone? :-) Whether its better or worse there will always be a percentage of people who hate it. I'm sure they shipped Win 8 expecting controversy - they aren't that stupid. 

To innovate sometimes you have to be willing to make mistakes. And as Jim says MS is in the enviable position of having  deep pockets. I'm sure they could withstand a few lackluster OS releases without even blinking too much. Apple is in the same situation. I wouldn't worry too much. Whats the worst that could happen - they take out the desktop UI? So what - some creative company will seize the opportunity and add it back :) Remember when you couldn't get ISA slots anymore - what happened to all the studios running ProTools rig's which needed ISA? There were companies that MAGMA that sold ISA farms! Technology only gets obsolete when there is no demand for it. As long as there is a real need there will be options...

Jim Roseberry

There are a lot of people making music on iPads these days.

You can tinker with your iPad... but you can't do a full-bore recording/mix with top-notch processing/mixing.
Not to mention video editing (which makes audio loads look puny)...


Doom and gloom for Windows???
I wouldn't bet on it.
You're talking about a company with DEEP pockets... that has amazing market share... of machines that conduct most of the world's business.


Love 'em or hate 'em... Microsoft will likely outlast all of us...

Jim Roseberry

We've compared side-by-side.
Across numerous current-generation builds, X2 performance is nearly identical under both Win7 and Win8.

I already asked this question in another post but, do you think Keith would make available the nifty in-house application called Sonar Perf to registered Sonar users?


This way we could emulate those tests and compare results. 


What do you think Keith, is that doable?

Paul P


If portability is the main thing pushing current development and you combine that with cloud computing,then maybe Microsoft has decided that it'll cater to the 99% of users and the other 1% (for example heavy daw users) be damned.

What would Microsoft care if audio professionals could no longer do their jobs ?

We currently use Windows because that's what Sonar comes on, but if it were to use Unix I'd be more than happy to switch to that.

I can always surf the net on a cheap windows device.

These are all excellent points.  The first one especially, because the business sense of it trumps most everything else.  I don't think that using audio on a future Microsoft OS will not be possible.  But it might not be in the guise we are used to now, for better or worse.


Btw, I played around with some multi-track recording apps on my iPad.  They are pretty impressive and, given that I consider these early days for that sort of thing, not at all a bad start in DAW alternatives.  I'm still strongly bound to my desktop PC and Windows and Sonar, and will be for a while yet for a number of reasons, but I agree with a previous poster's sentiment that "anything can happen and who knows what it'll be".


Perhaps Sonar will morph into an "app" that can run on any kind of tablet, laptop or PC.  Or maybe some other company will get there first and do that.  All sorts of possibilities which we may or may not like...


One thing for certain for me is that Windows 8 seems very much at odds with itself and I think they could have, and should have done a better job.  Much like the criticism leveled at Windows ME and Vista.  Nevertheless, I run Windows 8 for my home studio and I'm coping with its idiosyncrasies.  At work, I use a Mac with bootcamp for Windows (I must say I like the Mac touchpad as being one of the best, just as an aside).

>>Perhaps Sonar will morph into an "app" that can run on any kind of tablet, laptop or PC.  Or maybe some other
>> company will get there first and do that.  All sorts of possibilities which we may or may not like... 


It can today - get a Surface Pro :) 
I'm waiting for the next generation Pro with Haswell before I get one personally since I can't live with a 3.5 hour battery life.

Noel : "It can today - get a Surface Pro :) "

Run Sonar on 10" screen ? That to me is a pretty bizarre idea.

I can see the use of Surface for a touch controller but not more than that.

I like to see several pieces of virtual equipment (in their entirety) at once on a large screen.

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk
]

>>Perhaps Sonar will morph into an "app" that can run on any kind of tablet, laptop or PC.  Or maybe some other
>> company will get there first and do that.  All sorts of possibilities which we may or may not like... 


It can today - get a Surface Pro :) 
I'm waiting for the next generation Pro with Haswell before I get one personally since I can't live with a 3.5 hour battery life.

Well, yes, of course, and that's one very exciting area.  I probably should have underlined the word "any" (as I just did in the quote above) because I think consumers are getting more used to the notion that they can run things on multiple devices and multiple OS.  

Netflix is one example of a consumption type app that runs almost everywhere (iPhone, Android, WinPhone, iPad, Samsung tablet, MacBook, any-PC, etc. etc.).  Photoshop is somewhat there from the creative side.  Dare I say that GarageBand has made some in-roads on being available on all device-forms (albeit within the Apple family, which is counter to my point of "any", but still impressive conceptually, that you can take an idea from any one device-type and run with it across the gamut of iPhone, iPad, MacBook, etc.).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pouEAMNfUcY

This guy sort of sums it up and the comments section did make me chuckle.

Not because I want MS to fail, but because they're just not listening.

OK, I think this has been a good, worthwhile discussion and I've learned a few new things from it.

I just wish I wasn't being forced into the awkward predicament of 'loving' Sonar X2 and 'disliking' Windows 8, cause they're pretty intimate bedfellows.

This is my last post in this thread, but wanted to thank you all for the great participation and stimulating debate.

See you all in other interesting threads concerning things that we probably can control...lol

I recognise the signs when enough is enough...which was probably a few posts ago...lol

Cakewalk, keep up the great work and try and get MS to see at least 'some' sense ok?

Peace out!

Bill