SvenArne

<snip>However, it's looks cool and is quick to set up. It's also very convenient for bringing with you to location recordings. 

Perhaps a bit sad, but that's a really important consideration! If you are doing commercial work, and inviting clients in, you might be better served by a commercial product. I really should consider this, since my music stand covered with Sonex looks quite horrible!

wst3

Danny Danzi
Honest Paul, with the right mic on the right voice at close range, you seriously have to have a problem in that room to literally hear it messing up a voice on a recording.

I may be coming at this from a different direction, but I have to respectfully disagree.


First, you'd be surprised at how bad some rooms are. People record in really bad spaces. As someone that grew up working in purpose built studios I find it disturbing, but that's a different topic. As someone that has designed a few studios (some of which even worked), and been asked to help correct quite a few studios (both critical listening and recording spaces), I can tell you there are some really bad rooms out there, and $300 is not a lot to spend to fix them!


The problems can be mitigated for less, but some folks do not wish to spend the time building gobos, or even draping moving blankets on mic stands. To each their own.


For the record, but not directly OT, I don't really like the sound of most of the reflection filter type designs. You have to know quite a bit about selection and placement to get them to sound good - and if you know all that stuff you may not need one<G>!


I have a space right now that is pretty bad - not awful, but bad enough that I do have to think about it. I use a music stand covered with old Sonex panels to provide some noise reduction and isolation. It's a real poor man's gobo<G>!


Second - you might be surprised at how many folks do not have the microphone they need to record their voices. Microphones, good microphones anyway, are still not cheap. And that makes it a bit tricky! My microphone locker is modest, but I can usually find something that can works. When I can't then I rent what I really want<G>!


All this to say that you aren't wrong - the key to recording is the proper microphone in the proper spot. With these two dragons bested you minimize the need for compression or filters. (All this assumes that you have a good performance to record<G>!)


But, by the same token I'm not sure I think it is good advice to dismiss, out of hand, something like the SE Reflexion Filter. It is a tool, and in the proper hands, used properly, it can be a really good tool.


That's all...

That's quite ok in my book, Bill. It's perfectly fine to disagree. :) That said, if neither of us have had the experience of the other, it's easy for us to not be able to relate. In my experience (been at this over 30 years, not that it means anything...but it's experience lol) a room has never ruined a vocal take at close range to the point of that vocal take being un-useable.
 
Bad rooms or not...I've never encountered an issue like this. Even with cheaper mics. I just really don't feel enough room gets into the scheme of things to ruin the take or make you feel a reprint is in order. Once the music is behind the vocal, if there IS any room artifacts, you will not hear enough of them in my experience. But even there...if you are close range at a mic, how much reflection are you going to hear? I guess I've just gotten used to processing and eq-ing a vocal as an entity within the room.
 
Sure, some rooms make a difference in the quality of the vocal. But the same can be said about the person singing. Even in a bad room, a terrific vocal performance says it all. Though at times we may get some artifacts, there's never been a vocal that I couldn't make work is what I'm saying. There's never been enough of the artifacts to ruin the take.
 
I think that any skilled engineer that knows what they are doing can make things work with little to no work really, don't you? I mean seriously...enough to justify a $300 purchase? So to me, I think it is good advice because if a person were to hone their skills a bit, they wouldn't need to rely on a contraption like this unless they literally recorded in a bathroom. I just can't see a basic office, bedroom, basement or whatever, being so much of a problem, that a close range vocal would be ruined because of it.
 
After reading this thread and then your respectful reply of disagreement, I took the liberty to experiment a bit in several rooms in my house using a 57 into my lap-top with a little Joe Meek pre. I can't hear any room artifacts that would ruin anything....and this includes both of my bathrooms. There's a little something there in my main bathroom, but nothing that ruins anything like people are making rooms out to do.
 
Definitely with you on choosing the right mic. But even there, I've never had a room destroy a close range vocal take. There are many ways we can process a vocal to take artifacts a bit more out of the recording if we need to. I've never been faced with having to do that other than when someone literally got too much room in the recording from being far away from the mic...that's all I'm trying to say.
 
We're talking rooms in people's homes though....bedroom engineers, right? How truly bad can they be? A bit different from someone that builds a studio that may have an "empty, untreated room" ya know? Even there...give me the close range vocal take where the room destroyed the take, give me the stems of the music beds and I will make it work. I just can't fathom this until I hear it and deal with it myself. That's the best way *I* can explain it.
 
Honestly, I'm not trying to be confrontational....it's just that in all my years, none of this has happened to me and I'm not just a bedroom wannabe. I've worked with artists from all over the world, recorded myself for 100 years, have worked in several big recording studio's as well as smaller project studios in the USA and have been in some really messed up situations. Yet I've never encountered a room destroying anything but a drum sound. Maybe I've just been lucky...and if that's the case, thank you Jesus. :)
 
-Danny

I was gonna stay out of this.ive got to disagree Danny, you have not been recording yourself for100 years.

Hey Danny

    In my room, the reflection filter has definately earned it's keep.  Prior to making any money in music, I recorded all my stuff with no reflection filter, the recordings were not "ruined" per se, but they certainly got alot better sounding, and cleaner with the filter.  My room has a certain ..'uglyness' going on.  I have no idea why, but it it's very obvious on my acoustic guitars and less obvious on vocals, but still annoyingly there.

    Danny has much more experience than me, I can only give perspective from 'my' experience in 'my' room.  A vocal take might not be ruined without a reflection filter, just like a vocal take would still be usable with a, less than ideal mic.  But having the right tools for the right room can sound better from the get-go, instead of having to EQ shape stuff later. 

    Just my 2 cents.  I am not one to jump on audio bandwagons with subjects I can't hear..like, if different EQ's really 'sound' different, or the tone difference between using Duracell or Energizer batteries in my wah pedal...but with the reflection filter, I can honestly say that it was worth the purchase, for me.

    If I had the mixing skills of Danny, I'm sure using a reflection filter or better mic would be less important, but at my stage, I am trying to get all the advantage I can get, before I ruin it with plugs, EQ's and faders :)

(I recently purchased Waves Renaissance and can't help but throw all the RCompressors on everything! Someone stop me!)

Mike V: LOL! Ok ok, I take that one back...it sure does feel like 100 years though. I'm finally to the point where "the little red light" has no effect on me being so used to it. :)

LpMike: Glad you chimed in with that. Totally understand what you're saying and honestly don't mean to come off sounding like I'm disagreeing for the sake of or trying to sell anyone on my beliefs or practices. Let me ask you....how hard would it be for you to give me a track with the reflection filter and one without? Since you are seeing this to the point of it annoying you, I was just wondering if you could share some of it with me?

You have to keep in mind, and this is important....when we mix, what we hear solo isn't as important as you think. If you were to mix both of your tracks (with RF and without) would you still hear the room artifacts? Second question, if the voice was with just a piano...would you hear these artifacts?

See man, just because "something" is there, doesn't really make it "a problem" if it's not something that can be heard in a mix. To me, I'm just having a hard time justifying a $300 purchase for something that can't even be heard in a mix. If something sounds terrible on the vocal when it's solo'd up...isn't it more the voice, the mic selected, the performance of the singer and the eq/processing you're running that makes it not as good? 

How much room reflections can you possibly be getting at close range? This is what I don't understand. I've never heard a mic at close range throw off room reflections to where they made that much of a difference. I just have to hear this for myself to hear what you mean. I'm not trying to be bull-headed, it just doesn't compute in my mind or my personal experiences. I can't even get any room sound out of any of my mic's until I'm a foot away from them and I don't record that far away. So if this is the case for some people that are getting room artifacts, wouldn't be a better bet to just move as close to the mic as possible with a pop filter and a lower pre-gain? It's up close and intimate and there's no way reflections can even get to the sound unless you're in a tunnel or a tiled bathroom. See my point? I'm not disagreeing that you hear something....I just think this "something" can be remedied without spending $300. Keep in mind...I'm talking close range mic'ing here only.

With the guitar thing...ok, that I can understand (sort of) but that depends how far your mics are away as well as how much pre you have to run through them. The more pre, the more chance of artifacts. If you have to jack your pre, the pre may be the problem. I'm just beating my head in trying to understand this whole thing. LOL! When I record my acoustic guitars, the main mics are so close, if I'm not careful I can hit them while playing. This stops any room stuff from coming into the "core" of my sound. The other mic's I use are there to capture the room and are further away. I expect room sound to come from them as well as a little delay time from the distance. But close up? I just can't make this happen. So if you can share something with me, I'd love to listen and even try to work it into a music bed. I'd be willing to bet when I got done with it, you'd not hear anything that resembled an artifact that you would find annoying. :)

-Danny

One cannot argue with another's experience. My experience is that a vocal track recorded in a bad room my not be that noticeable on a poor monitoring system, but, listen to that vocal track on a high-end monitoring system and you will hear quite clearly the phase issues due to the bad room. Larger rooms are more forgiving, but small rooms that are poorly treated require some mitigation. The Reflexion Filter is one way. Is it worth the money? That's up to you to decide.

In professional studios they go to extremes to avoid a poor quality vocal tracks (or any other track) before hitting the recording device. It is always better to record clean tracks going in than try and repair them after the fact. This is based on my more than fifty years making music and being owner of a professional studio for more years than I care to admit to. 

Danny is a very knowledgeable and capable engineer, not to mention being very talented musician. However, our experience has not been the same as far as this topic is concerned.

JSGlen


One cannot argue with another's experience. My experience is that a vocal track recorded in a bad room my not be that noticeable on a poor monitoring system, but, listen to that vocal track on a high-end monitoring system and you will hear quite clearly the phase issues due to the bad room. Larger rooms are more forgiving, but small rooms that are poorly treated require some mitigation. The Reflexion Filter is one way. Is it worth the money? That's up to you to decide.

In professional studios they go to extremes to avoid a poor quality vocal tracks (or any other track) before hitting the recording device. It is always better to record clean tracks going in than try and repair them after the fact. This is based on my more than fifty years making music and being owner of a professional studio for more years than I care to admit to. 

Danny is a very knowledgeable and capable engineer, not to mention being very talented musician. However, our experience has not been the same as far as this topic is concerned.

I agree 100 % there JS and thank you for the kind words. I just need to hear how much room they can possibly be hearing for my own benefit. I'm honestly not trying to argue and apologize to all if they are taking me that way. I'm asking you all to teach me because I just haven't had this happen to me. Using any mic at close range, I've never felt the room was messing with the vocals/instrument to the point of having to fix/filter the room from being on the track. So I'd love to hear examples of this in action if at all possible for my head. I'm curious to see how I would deal with something like this as well as how much room is there to begin with. That's the part I'm having the hardest time with. I can't even make it happen with a Logitech built-in cam mic unless I'm sitting 2 foot from the thing. LOL! If I walk up to it and eat it, it sounds perfectly normal to me....and you know that mic is garbage.
 
-Danny

Just so you guys see I'm not totally out of my tree. Mic's don't get any worse than this.

Logitech cam mic 2 ft away: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/Logi2ftAway.mp3

Logitech cam mic up close: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/LogiCloseRange.mp3

I hear the room in effect in the first one....the second one however, is not giving me anything to be concerned with other than the mic and fidelity are horrible.

-Danny

My 2 cents. I was very close to buying one of these but was very happy with the results of simply hanging a heavy sleeping bag in a "C" config around the mics.
I found a significant difference in need for pre noise suppression and post gating.
At the time my main concern was the computer fans and that really helped because it is more or less floor to ceiling. I can really hear the difference just standing in the "C" area.
The bonus was I can fold up the bag, put it away and use the office for other work.
I screwed hooks into the ceiling and put those removable tarpaulin clamps on the bag.
It takes 30 seconds to assemble or dissemble.

Actually Danny, the problem can be worse with more expensive (more sensitive) mics. As pointed out earlier in this thread, there is a reason that 57 & 58's are used in live venues. They are less prone to picking-up anything not in close proximity to the mic.

Also, there are so many variables to take into consideration. The volume of the recording space (room), the room treatment, the mic, and the level at which the singer is singing. Obviously, if the singer is singing very softly in close to the mic the less chance of the room having much of an impact.
Conversely, even up close, if the singer is singing loudly into a sensitive condenser mic the room will be more prominent.