That issue is really irrelevent in any DAW if you are gain staging properly and leaving                    yourself headroom. Limiters are not required for mixing but they can be a nice controller for            high transient things like drum busses.


Did you ever saw the original video comparison between Nuendo and Pro Tools?

Read my post #25. It sort of explains things. That video is rubbish. I have been using PT for years and never experienced anything like it.  I don't think Freddie knows Pro Tools very well either otherwise he would not post such a stupid video.

Yeah, I don't have much experience with Pro Tools, but of course I supposed there was something stupid about that video...

But I tell you what, the old DIGI 001 at 16 bits is like a saw, if you overload the headroom a bit, it will distort inmediately (like no other audio interface tested by me)..in 24 bits works perfect, now I'm testing a DIGI 003 control and seems great, of course.
But I'm learning the mixing workflow of Pro Tools ,and I get into clipping more often than Sonar, I'm sure is my inexperience...

Hi there Carl. It should not matter whether floating or fixed point processing is used there seems to be a fascination for people working in the DAW world to be sending signals around the place at various points in the signal chain that are just so high and basically there is no need to do it at all. It is something that is has been brought forward from analog recording where higher levels were desirable in order to keep a good signal to noise ratio happening.

It is so easy to avoid clipping on tracks, busses and the final masterbuss. And this also includes any or all of your plugins as well. Once you get into 24 bit as the digital noise floor is just so low it is of no consequence really and a whole world opens up where one starts working down at a much lower ref level. 

Once you treat your ref level as the rms ref level then everything falls into place really. If you choose say -20 dB as a ref level then you are working with signals that have an average rms level of -20 dB FS with a whopping 20 dB of headroom above that. Same applies to plugins. You can come into and go out of a plugin the same way leaving lots of headroom inside the plugin too. (unless you want to push a plugin for creative purposes and that is quite OK too but you can still come out at the ref level again though) VU meters (real or plugins as well) are excellent for checking ref rms levels at any point in your signal chain. Even peak meters are going to show you if you are too close to 0dB FS.

The ref level approach works the same way on busses and the final masterbuss. That is why I have never heard Pro Tools distort when I work with it no matter what version it is. I don't see one clip light anywhere on any DAW that I use. Once you apply a concept such as K System metering etc you will get the same very clean result on any DAW.

(good advice for everyone here!) Stop trying to make your mixes sound loud and sound like the final mastered thing. Forget it. When mixing you can keep everything low and detailed and very clean. Turn your monitoring level up to the level you want to hear you mix at, that is the way to do it. Mastering is the time to make things more compressed, limited and ultimately louder. 

Good post Jeff.

Most of it is really basic stuff, but sometimes it needs to be spelled out for the benefit of all, newbies & old hands alike.

One thing that annoys me is that many synth presets have the synth's master volume cranked up as high as possible by default. So when you're browsing through presets for a sound to tweak, you either have to turn the volume down on the synth every time or turn the input gain down on the track in order to stop it from overloading the ProChannel. Z3TA is notorious for this. I find that I have to turn the master volume on that synth down to about 15-20% in order to get an acceptable starting point for gain staging. 

Jeff Evans


(good advice for everyone here!) Stop trying to make your mixes sound loud and sound like the final mastered thing. Forget it. When mixing you can keep everything low and detailed and very clean. Turn your monitoring level up to the level you want to hear you mix at, that is the way to do it. Mastering is the time to make things more compressed, limited and ultimately louder. 

Sound advice (sic)

sharke


One thing that annoys me is that many synth presets have the synth's master volume cranked up as high as possible by default. So when you're browsing through presets for a sound to tweak, you either have to turn the volume down on the synth every time or turn the input gain down on the track in order to stop it from overloading the ProChannel. Z3TA is notorious for this. I find that I have to turn the master volume on that synth down to about 15-20% in order to get an acceptable starting point for gain staging. 

Very true sharke.

I always slap a brickwall limiter on my synth bus when I'm auditioning patches, to protect both ears & monitors