Glad to see the thread went to sound proofing rather than room acoustic management, which seemed more to your question. I have just been to two new rooms being built here in Western PA - two console rooms and two live rooms - Sound Proofing is very very expensive is you plan to do it - and it most likely is out of the question in a rented space since some of what you have to do may not sit well with the owner - I seem to recall back in my apartment days in the mid 80's - that probably why I did some much MIDI then.

-D

Thanks again to all.

Maybe sound*proofing* is the wrong term, since it implies that you could have Led Zeppelin playing inside the room and there would be complete silence right outside the door. How about sound*minimizing*? I'm not so concerned about my synths or monitors, since I can turn the volume down or use headphones, and I'll probably start farming out my mixing/mastering anyway. It's mainly the sax I'm worried about. I just want to reduce the volume enough so that even if people can hear it somewhat, it's not loud enough to motivate them to complain.

Here's the link to the floorplan again:
http://www.watergatesales.com/html/wg-02.html

The kitchen is internal, so that's two sets of walls the sound has to penetrate. I'm thinking that if can play in the kitchen, have some big sound-absorbant flaps that I can temporarily hang over the doorways, and maybe even lay something down on the floor (there seem to be various products available for this purpose), that might do the trick. I'm on the top floor, so I'm not too worried about the ceiling.

Your thoughts ... ?

that even if people can hear it somewhat, it's not loud enough to motivate them to complain.

Watch you get an apartment next to some old lady that lives alone, and is stubborn, and mad at the world. And if she hears a pin drop from your apartment, she wont just complain, she'll call the police... There are people all over the place like that.. I had a friend that worked nights, and lived in an apartment, and when he would leave at night at 11:30, and shut his door to leave, the neighbor would instantly write up a complaint to mangament, and turn it in.. Every 5 days for 2 months she wrote him up, and the landlord finally made him leave for no reason, yet with all the complaints, on paper, nothing he could do other than leave.. So, long story short, I would try to find out who you are moving around first.. I mean, what if you move in right next to someone that works nights, and during the day, has his/her apartment dead silent. You may get it to where you don't bother others that are up watching tv, but you wake him up and he can't go back to sleep - well that's going to cause major probs.. Ya know..

Hello,

Use your kitchen (interior room) and get a couple of furniture pads from Markertek and hang them up to cover the doorways. (You can probably get away with buying one and cutting it in half.) This should attenuate the sound somewhat as far as the outside world is concerned. That may be enough to make the level palatable to your neighbors. Furniture pads have the same effect as using a quilt or duvet, but are less thick, more dense and more attractive. The down side is that room will get hot and "close" (short on oxygen) pretty quickly, especially in the summer.

GK

I tried to find some net references to Deep Purple's Machine Head recording (1971) that was done in a Hotel with a bunch of Mattresses piled up around amps, drums and singers. It's amazing how much a mattress can do - not too attractive but can be covered and look fairly cool.

-D

Nick,
I built an isolation booth in my living room specifically for my sax playing musical partner. It is small: 6'x5'x7'. So I put the guy in there and of course we have to shut the door or the sound is just as loud as it was originally. Since soundproofing requires an airtight enclosure, he can only stay in there for 10 minutes or so before we have to open it and air it out. But it works. The neighbors could hear him before, and now he's basically inaudible to them. This is a recording solution, not a practicing solution. And trying to ventilate iso booths is a costly endeavor.

Don't they make something you can stuff in the bell of the horn so it's quieter? I'd try that before soundproofing. Also, the midi wind controllers might be a possibility if practicing on them will translate to usable technique on a real sax. Or buy a van and then drive somewhere and practice in the van.

Good afternoon. You didn't list a budget - heres an idea

http://whisperroom.com/EAP.HTML

You can reuse over and over...

Best Regards,

Lance

Watch you get an apartment next to some old lady that lives alone, and is stubborn, and mad at the world. And if she hears a pin drop from your apartment, she wont just complain, she'll call the police... There are people all over the place like that..

Tell me about it! I once moved into an an old apartment where the floors creaked. Couldn't help it. The downstairs neighbor apparently thought I was doing it on purpose. Finally, two months after moving in, he banged on my door one day, then walked back downstairs. When I stepped into the hall to calm him down, he said he was "going to get me" and pulled out a semi-automatic handgun. I made a hasty exit out the back and called the police. They did a quick check on the guy and concluded this was a SWAT operation. The guy had over fifteen rifles, handguns, gas masks, Kevlar vests, etc. I moved out the next day.

I never even played my sax there! This happened in a quiet bedroom community in California's "wine country." I had lived in New Jersey, San Francisco, and Los Angeles with no problems. It's really all a roll of the dice.

Use your kitchen (interior room) and get a couple of furniture pads from Markertek and hang them up to cover the doorways.

I went to the Markertek site and searched for "pads" and "furniture pads" but didn't see anything that fit the description. Any idea specifically what the product is called?

The down side is that room will get hot and "close" (short on oxygen) pretty quickly, especially in the summer.

Well, that's a little frightening. I'm willing to suffer for my art, but not to the point of suffocation. ;-) I would hope that I could leave a little opening for some air to come in. Or would that cause too much sound to escape?

I tried to find some net references to Deep Purple's Machine Head recording (1971) that was done in a Hotel with a bunch of Mattresses piled up around amps, drums and singers. It's amazing how much a mattress can do - not too attractive but can be covered and look fairly cool.

I think rock 'n roll bands have done worse things in hotel rooms than make noise, especially in the 70's. ;-) A mattress would probably be a little unwieldy; I need something I can set up and take down for each session and doesn't take up loads of room since its a small apartment. But that's the general idea: something to block and/or absorb sound.

Nick,
I built an isolation booth in my living room specifically for my sax playing musical partner. It is small: 6'x5'x7'. So I put the guy in there and of course we have to shut the door or the sound is just as loud as it was originally. Since soundproofing requires an airtight enclosure, he can only stay in there for 10 minutes or so before we have to open it and air it out. But it works. The neighbors could hear him before, and now he's basically inaudible to them. This is a recording solution, not a practicing solution. And trying to ventilate iso booths is a costly endeavor.

That's good to know. How much did your booth cost? I called one place that said I could build such a booth using their materials for about $1000. There's also something called the "Whisper Room" that does the same thing which is more expensive. The downsides, of course, are the expense, taking up space, and having to sit in an enclosed space which seems a little claustrophobic. I may ultimately have to do this, but I'm hoping that the make-my-kitchen-an-isolation-booth approach would work first.

Don't they make something you can stuff in the bell of the horn so it's quieter? I'd try that before soundproofing. Also, the midi wind controllers might be a possibility if practicing on them will translate to usable technique on a real sax. Or buy a van and then drive somewhere and practice in the van.

I usually stuff a cloth in the bell to muffle it, but that only goes so far. Unlike, say, a trumpet, the sound emanates from all over the sax, not just the bell. And when I record, of course, I can't do this.

I bought the Akai EWI wind controller earlier this year partly for the reason you state: so I have something to play that doesn't make noise (when I use headphones) and I can practice anywhere. Plus, I think it's cool. The actual playing technique is much different than the sax, so I don't feel there's much of a benefit there. But I suppose that whatever happens mentally (i.e., new harmonic concepts) transfers over.

I like your van idea. :-) Actually, the apartment is right on the bay, so I could probably go somewhere outside that's secluded and play. I may be able to find a church, or a business, that will let me use their space in the evening for little or no fee. This would not be ideal, since I use my computer for various things in my practice sessions, but it's better than nothing. And I still need to record at home. No sense in having this terrific software if you can't use it, right?

Good afternoon. You didn't list a budget - heres an idea

http://whisperroom.com/EAP.HTML

You can reuse over and over...

Best Regards,

You must have posted while I was writing my recent message, because I mentioned the Whisper Room. ;-) It looks very effective, but they start at about $2760 and go up to $13k. I don't want to spend near that much -- as little as possible, actually. At least until I have my first platinum album (ha ha).

I feel your pain. Apartments aren't easy places to practice/record in. Interestingly, it's usually the low frequencies that are hardest to attenuate so you're in luck as a sax player. Most freq's are in the mid to high range. It's fairly inexpensive to create a "room within a room" that can drop those frequencies by better than 30-60dB. There is a very expensive/heavy pre fab from a company called Quiet Solutions. Check them out. Basically, to maximally attenuate sound you need an airtight space with walls that are rigid and dense. Sometimes that can be impractical to say the least.

If you take a sheet of standard drywall, apply a very thin sheet of foamed neoprene, then add one more layer of standard drywall, you can make a relatively cost effective room that can cut sound transmission to about 40dB. There's lots of info out there about that.

I would definately try to get ground level apartment, see if you can get one that has a "firewall" which is often a cinderblock divider between apartments. That helps a lot!

But no matter what you do, an apartment is a crap-shoot. Maybe get one near the airport so that noise-abatement laws are a non-issue? My house/studio is in between 2 runways and even with my loudest band "jammin' on 11" and all the windows open, the cops can't say a thing to me!

good luck!