The Mackie opamp scheme has pretty good specs, but it is a rather bright and thin unit to use on vox...for 300-500 I would look at the warm audio WA12, its a 312 style...and you will notice a huge difference...in that price range to see something not "lateral" you need to find a single channel boutique unit, in other words NOT Art, Focusrite, Presonus,etc... definitely nothing that starts with Bear and ends in ringer...

Honestly I would look a used yamaha or sony mixer from the 80's in that price range...something like that...you'd be surprised how good they can be if you clean them up...

Hi Psychobillybob,
Have you heard any of the Warm Audio stuff? I've been looking at their 500 series modules for a little bit and have been curious....

Dean

If you're good with a soldering iron, look at the seventh circle kits. $500.00 gets you a neve or john hardy or api style pre-amp that will make you never worry about pres again...

Yes, more money on preamps will make a difference - but it is subtle, not striking.  But it does add up.  The biggest difference is in gain, so that you can make better mic placement choices, backing off from the source, getting more air or room.  A good preamp is well worth having for solo and overdubs.

As far as the SOS test - I wouldn't expect there to be much differerence using mic preamps in a general setting.  The differences show up more when pushing the mic preamps, using them for their stregnths.  Again, not night and day or "it was like lifting a veil of my sound."  At first, you might not even notice it.  But your ear will figure it out.  Also, the lowest common denominator in your system will hold down the difference.  But once you do start to hear it, it is there.  You can hear deeper into the individual sounds captured, you can hear the little hairs on sound, you can feel them on the saturation.  And then you start using that knowledge to better place your mics.

Unless you have unlimited money or are in the business selling studio bling, it doesn't make sense to spend thousands on a vintage Neve module or something.  If you want a good all-arounder w/ a touch of transformer goodness the ISA One is a classic Neve design.  And it has lots of singer-songwriter tricks.  My favorite new preamp these days is the warm audio.  As noted above, based upon the classic api 312, which you've heard on tons of albums - as well as CDs.  Thick but still punchy sound, tons of headroom.  Works very well to give an analog ... roundness and heft to digital recording.  You can get either of those for $400-500 and is a tool you won't have to get rid of when you hit the bigtime and afford the old neves, etc.

Razor - I've got the 1/2 rack Warm audio preamp here at home.  Like I said above, it is good stuff.  We shot it out at a friend's studio against his "real" api's and, if there was a difference, is was a thin red hair.  Good components, good build.  I'm sure Bryce's api slot units are as well built tho I haven't heard them.  I am waiting on his next preamp, which is the wa12 but with, I think, a clean mode that takes the transfomer out of the circuit.  anyway, it is supposed to be the same and different.

@

joeb1cannoli



 But it always gives me some relief to read an article like the mic pre comparison in the October Sound on Sound mag. In a blind test, industry professionals chose a $200 Art mic pre over other more expensive pres. 
 I believe that there's a lot of placebo effect in our hobby/business. "It has to be expensive to be good. 
 If the pres you have sound good to you, then they are good.

+ many. ^^^This is so true. Blind tests are a great leveller.

I "love" my peavey vmp2! Silky smooth vocals connected to a akg414. Shop for one on ebay. Great pre that rivals the upper offerings.

I've had an ART MPA gold for a few years and while its often poo pooed it's given me great service not only for vocals but guitar as well. It's a blend of solid state and tube circuitry. 2 channels that can be used independently with enough bells and whistles to make me happy I bought one. Under $400 new, great value for the money.

I've used it to fool many a "trained" ear.

For my needs -Only on channel XLR in but I need at leaset 2 or 3 outs. This wil fit my monitoring scheme. I am still trying to get the Roland OCta caopture to do that but cAn't seem to gwet the outs mapped where I want-but the mic pres are nice.

2 things.

You will not enjoy what a great preamp does with vocals without a great vocalist. You need to bring it to the table to hear what a great preamp will do.

You will not enjoy what a great preamp does with vocals if you do not have a darn good set of monitors or a darn good home stereo.


I think that is why most people can easily convince them selves that a industrial grade preamp can compare favorably to a no holds barred, best of breed preamp.

If you're happy... be happy.

If you have a great vocalist to work with than it's worth listening to the details and enjoying yourself.

I think the $500 price point is too low to bother with if you already have some nice industrial grade stuff. The industrial stuff will compare favorably to that stuff.


Here's a unit I'd recommend without hesitation:

http://www.greweb.com/product.cfm?ID=20&type=0




It's nothing very special... but it's also the real deal.

If you can't hear the difference between this and the stuff spoken of as almost as good... then you don't need it.

If you can... and you get used to it... you are going to want it.


Witnessing people's reactions to the recent Sound on Sound test has been a revelation of sorts. The folks that use that test and article to bolster their confidence don't bother to question the fact that 

1) There wasn't an actual great preamp used in the comparison. (I own a API 3124+... sounds great on drums ;-), I've worked on real 1073's... the AMS clone is expensive... but there's better sounding 1073 clones)
2) The test wasn't "blind", and it was not a "test".
3) The sound source sounded so bad and lacking in dynamics that it masked any nuance you might hope to appreciate. A player piano to test preamps? Really? It's a percussion instrument being played by a robot.

It reinforced my impression that people that don't know, don't really want to know.


Frank, I'd say that the primary reason to spend the money will be if you have a singer that can really work the mic, work the preamp, and make it matter. You'll know when it's time because you'll start realizing that the *mackie* grade stuff all sounds the same and you'll want something better.

Your question, as I interpret it, is a great one; "How much do you have to spend to really get past industrial grade sound?".  The answer may not be comforting, but there is an answer.

Good luck in your endeavors.


best regards,
mike

Oh, and one other kinda important thing.


If you send a line level output into a I/O box's mic/line input and it doesn't have a true hardware mic preamp bypass... guess what? You are gonna be listening to the sound of your industrial grade mic preamp (turned down real low) and you might form an opinion that the external preamp sounds similar to the industrial grade stuff.

You'll want an I/O box with actual, real life, line level inputs if you actually want to hear the wonderful sound of an actual no holds barred pre amp.


all the best,
mike



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