Lots of good info and opinions in this thread.  It is kinda nice to get away from bashing in some of the others, esp. the personal stuff.

what an interesting concept. 

@

AT


Lots of good info and opinions in this thread.  It is kinda nice to get away from bashing in some of the others, esp. the personal stuff.

what an interesting concept. 

@

Agree 100% :-)

2 contenders under $500 API Clone http://www.warmaudio.com/wa12-specs-2/ http://www.soundonsound.c...les/goldenagepre73.htm

Hello stratman70,
 
I've been a part owner of a SMALL commercial studio (project studio) since 1992.  I owned a small sound company from 1985 to 1994.  When my partner retired in 2005, I found a new partner and started my current project studio.
 
Over the years I've had to make many purchasing decisions.  While budget is a very important part of a decision, The MOST imposrtant consideration is often over looked. 
 
#1  WHY am I considering purchasing a new equipment,  am I really hearing soething that NEEDS to be improved?  If so, am I sure that I am looking at the RIGHT type of equipment to add?
 
#2  Does the purchase MAKE SENSE for my current set up.
 
Stratman, You have a nice set up already. . .  equipment wise. 
I am furthur assuming that you have a "studio" set up.  A dedicated room with good sound treatment.  Control room/area with some kind of a vocal booth.  If not . . . perhaps your money can be spent improving your audio environment.
 
I rarely make any specific recommendation on equipment because I don't know what your environment sounds like.  I can't hear what you are hearing.
 
Please remember that Audio is VERY subjective.  The bottom line is . . . do you like what you hearing in your environment.
 
If you are going to buy anything, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS buy from somewhere that offers at least a 30 return policy.  If it doesn't WORK WELL in your environment, send it back.  A test run in your audio environment is where you need to make your final decision.
 
I own 2 SP C1.  When I purchased the first one many years ago, I tried the side-by-side test between the U-87 and the C1 in my environment.  My mic-pre (Focusrite Voice Masters), my control room, my vocal booth, my console (24 ch Mackie 8-bus) and my monitors.  I heard a very subtle difference when I A/B'd the playback (20bit 8-track ADAT machine).  I LIKED the way the C1 sounded to my ears and I would save $1600.  A $200 mic made sense in my environment.  If I already had $500,000 invested in a larger studio, a $1900 mic would certainly make sense.
 
This is the kind of testing you should do for all purchases for your set up. Also read the Mnufacturer's Hype on their "philosopy of design" of the particular unit you are interested in.
 
Here is my audio philosophy for my audio environment. . .  and every should have one. 
I record and mix in a near "acoustically dead" environment.  Since the air volume in my control room and isolation booth is quite small, a dead environment is cost evffective.  For recording, I prefer to "add" the appropriate room ambience of my choice.  In the control room, the dead environment gives me really good stereo depth, width and imaging at my listening position.
 
For adding "Coloration",  I prefer to use the microphone to provide the main "coloration" (character).  All "tube saturation" knob/switch is usually off, I want to hear the source/mic combination.  I prefer to digitally add tube saturation in the mix, if it really needs it.  My favorite vocal mics are C1, ADK Hamburg, ADK Vienna and the MXL V69 which I modified with a vintage NOS e6389 tube (not sure about the exact #) I bought on e-bay for $90.
 
My favorite mic pres are M-aidio Tampa and the Focusrite Voice Master Pro.
 
Other mic pres in my set up are, (2) Focusrite Voicemaster, (4) SP B1 (great instrument pre with no tube sound) and M-audio Octo-pre.
 
Other mics in my set up are, (2) AKG C1000, (2) AKG C3000, (2) MXL V69, (2) MXL 609S, SP TB1, AKG D112, CAD drum mics and a bunch of 57s & 58s.
 
All this just gives me more options.  As you noticed, I have not given you a recommendation.  I just want to say that if you want to "upgrade", you will need to do it to your entire chain (the mic, the mic-pre and the A/D converter), assuming that the mic is placed in a good acoustical room.
 
Just my 2 cents worth.
Ed Layola

Very sound advice Exd
Thank You
Everyone has been great.
 
Since the OCtaCapture preamps  (to my ears) create the full bodied. clear yet powerful without any eq'ng or FX I have decided I need to make it work in my setup. As stated, I am partial to the echla Layla3G for total mix "fullness" depth, body, whatever I will need to find a way to record vocals with the Roland and everything else with the echo.
 
Just a matter of re routing and thinking a bit.
 
What started me down this path of mic pres was the surprise I got when I recorded a vocal track with the newly aquired OCtacapture.
 
Thanks again for all the help and advice. Much appreciated.

I like the Summit 2BA-221 for vocals on a dry mic--it's really good at warming them up evenly. If it's a tube mic, or I just want the transformer Neve-ish "sound", the GAP Pre-73 is nice. I also recommend looking at a Radial Cube and pick out a good starting 500-series module. You can grow from there and trade/loan modules with some others pretty easily. 

gunboatdiplomacy



 
............ so I purchased a BAE DMP which is solid state. my first choice was a UA 610 Solo, but valve+valve might be a little too much. 

Hey gunboat!
You say something here that peaked my interest. "valve+valve" can you expand on that?


Do you mean a valve mic plus a valve pre amp? And what effects will that create?


Thanks for your reply and from those of others!

Valve + valve depends on the definition...if you are using a "presonus tube pre" you are really not getting anything like a true tube effect since it uses a "starved plate" architecture, ie: Real tube pre's/and mics call for high tension voltage on the B+ side of the tube...

A U87 type tube mic with a REDD 47 type pre will give you frequencies, harmonics and a natural compression to die for, I know because I have built both and can say without hesitation that a true tube pre pretty much lows away just about anything else..

I have Neve, API, SSL, and Amek type pre-amps and the tube stuff is hands down my choice for vox, DI and most everything else...

So a tube mic will capture a lot of really nice full bodied sources and a good tube pre will expand on that...think Beatles "Abby Road" or "White Album", or Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon...these records were made using REDD 47/51 consoles and tube mics...so there isn't a whole lot of outboard stuff needed...LA2A and 1176 not quite as big back then...it was the mic and the console...

Today you can't get a REDD 47 (unless you build it yourself) and the really true tube mics with the proper capsules costs close to 4K...

There are lots of knock-off and tube slight of hand in the industry, but a real tube device requires very high voltage, (+350V) and if you think you can get that from a wall wart psu device you don't understand the physics underneath it all...

I do have some Damage Control tube stuff that uses a wall wart, but its 12V AC not DC which is a different beast...

If you want to get a budget "tube" signal chain, the Electro Harmonix 12AY7 gets close, but is still about 150V shy of a real tube design...

The difficulty with this kind of tube design is there is a very low grid plate demand of 6.3 volts that many manf. exploit, but its the grid voltage and not the actual plate voltage...you can throw 6 volts all day long at a tube but if the plate voltage isn't there then the grid isn't really doing much...

Tubes were essentially the for-runners of modern IC transisitors, so they are essentially gas based amps...but they truly do require high voltage to function properly and there are very few preamp compays willing to take on the UL insurance risk of selling a high voltage device so almost all of your modern "tube" gear is running low voltage...

But if you want natural compression, sweet harmonics and a huge sound...a tube mic into a true tube pre cannot be beat...

Hi Psychobillybob,
The starved plate stuff is interesting to me (and a topic that I freely admit I know nothing about). Is +350 kind of the mark at which it becomes no longer a starved plate? I ask because I use some tube gear and I'm curious about it's design. For example, Sebatron says of their preamps that their "Anode Voltage is approximately +300VDC". 

Another example, Summit (more gear I own) says: "We use 185V there, and never use starved plate, low voltage designs. All amplifiers operate on a gain curve with a certain 'sweet spot' where the vacuum tube manufacturer's specifications are ideal. We stay in the sweet spot. Starved plates are often characterized by unexpected gain curves and poor consistency from device to device and over time, with exaggerated distortion characteristics".

Just wondering about your thoughts on this stuff and I certainly value your opinion on this.

Dean

Starved-plate designs are made to "add" color to your sound. Standard high-voltage tube designs historically were to actually "amplify" the signal. So, IMO if you have the option, try to find equipment that will do the latter. Simply adding color only deteriorates the signal, even if it adds warmth. 

For example, if you try out the UA 710 Twin-Finity, which is actually a simple design, it is made to amplify by tube, and you really have to crank up the gain to get that warmth, but it never gets too colored or unfocused. I dug it when I borrowed one. Al Schmidt touts about it as well.