I don't understand what I'm doing wrong here...
 
Using the Concrete Limiter I'm trying to reduce a few select peaks that have been yielding -0.6 or -0.3 in the final mix while the average peaks for the piece are at near -1.2
 
So I would think that if I set my threshold at -0.9 and my ceiling at -0.3 my end result should have nothing above 0.3?
 
So why do I get overs? I have the limiter inserted in the master's PC as the only working item and I've verified that everything is routed to the master... and though I'm seeing input and output on the Concrete, I don't see any gain reduction...
 
I would expect to get -0.3 peaks???
 
Thanks...
Keni
 

Is the PC turned on at the top? PC power button.

Keni, try this and see if it helps. Right click on the blank space where the power button is on the concrete limiter (not on the power button)....select post effects bin. See if it does what you're after.

-Danny

Danny Danzi


Keni, try this and see if it helps. Right click on the blank space where the power button is on the concrete limiter (not on the power button)....select post effects bin. See if it does what you're after.

-Danny

Yep that caught me too. I finally figured it out about pre/post FX bin. 

John

Danny Danzi


Keni, try this and see if it helps. Right click on the blank space where the power button is on the concrete limiter (not on the power button)....select post effects bin. See if it does what you're after.

-Danny

Yep that caught me too. I finally figured it out about pre/post FX bin. 

Yeah, quite amazing the difference this makes.
 
Another tip since we're talking about that pre/post thing.
 
Those using Drum modules in a virtual track situation....say, Superior or something....you will gain more PC eq control enabling post for this. You will notice if you do not, you gain just about 0 eq changes at all other than volume boosts.
 
This only happens when you create a drum template where Sonar connects all the virtual tracks so you can use your own effects or whatever while using a drum module.
 
You know, when you insert a drum module and have it create all the tracks in Sonar....this is when you have to use "post" to really hear differences. The same with those of you still using Sonar 8.5 or earlier where you use a Sonitus on each track. Anytime you have virtual tracks, change the eq/processors to post to get more eq control as well as smaller movements with more sound being altered.
 
This is NOT to be confused with pre/post effects send/returns. This is only on individual tracks where pro channel or anything is used while NOT in an effects bin.
 
-Danny

Thanks Guys...

But it didn't help... I have a feeling this has something to do with the fact that this limiter's threshold appears to be an input gain control and not really a threshold control...

I wonder what they've done to the signal path if this is indeed making a difference for for you guys... If it was analog, tapping the line before or after the insert point should have no volume difference if nothing is inserted to do so...

But even with that. If I have the ceiling of a brickwall limiter set below zero, I don't believe I should get and output over that level. Isn't that the point of calling it a ceiling and a brickwall limiter?

This is one of those times I wish I had a proper analof device to do this... Setting a threshold control to trigger at a given point with unity gain at the ouput of the device should yield no change until the thrreshold is passed and then that gain should be brought doen by the ratio's setting.... Or am I wrong here?

Thanks again...
Keni

You'd not be "brickwalling" if you're only using -0.9 threshold. You're really not even using the limiter enough to make much of a difference at all there. But, it should keep you from going over -0.3 dB. What is the volume set for on the track you're using it on? That makes a difference too. To get a true -0.3 dB this is assuming the fader is set to 0 dB.

Here's a good example. When I mix something, I do my best to make sure the mix peaks at -3 dB and do my best to achieve this using the track faders without touching the master bus. If I don't do this and just adjust the master bus fader and say it ends up being the master fader set to -4 dB to achieve a -3 dB peak in a full play of the song, a limiter is not going to get me to -3 dB because the fader is set to -4 dB.

Let's do the opposite now. You have you mix set up, but to get to -3 dB you have your master bus fader set at +2 dB. When you put the limiter on and set it for -0.3 peak, you're going to get peaks based on a +2 master bus fader, understand?

Set the master to 0 dB, get your mix via faders where you want it peak wise on your master LED read-out after a full pass of the tune, then add your concrete limiter, set it for -0.3 dB ceiling, and you can put the threshold anywhere you want and it will NOT go over -0.3 dB if it is set for "post". Try it, you'll see what I mean. :)

-Danny

Nice Explanation Danny...

But I do know my engineering somewhat and I've checked such... My Master fader is at 0 and my levels are reaching zero peak with a new mix I created, but it only happens once in the song, and another two similar that come to -0.6 and -0.3...

So what I thought to do was leave all as is, and setup a limiter to catch those three peaks so that I would have a little more even signal to work with for mastering...

Nothing I've tried yet allows me to do this and I've done it in the past in the analog world... But I don't seem to own a compressor with separate input and threshold controls... It seems that all the limiters are using the input-gain-as-threshold approach which I'm ok with in the right situation... This isn't one of them... I'm not trying to increase the gain of the mix, only to limit those three peaks...

When I use the Concrete in my mastering, It works as expected... but there it is increasing the gain a little but it does stay to the set ceiling.... Why is it not doing so when used on the mix's master bus?

I've been using this approach for a long time and it's worked quite well for me as I do my best not to use any limiters during my mix session... But this is one of those situations where this should have been a quick-fix...?

Thanks for taking time to try helping me...

Keni

Keni


Nice Explanation Danny...

But I do know my engineering somewhat and I've checked such... My Master fader is at 0 and my levels are reaching zero peak with a new mix I created, but it only happens once in the song, and another two similar that come to -0.6 and -0.3...

So what I thought to do was leave all as is, and setup a limiter to catch those three peaks so that I would have a little more even signal to work with for mastering...

Nothing I've tried yet allows me to do this and I've done it in the past in the analog world... But I don't seem to own a compressor with separate input and threshold controls... It seems that all the limiters are using the input-gain-as-threshold approach which I'm ok with in the right situation... This isn't one of them... I'm not trying to increase the gain of the mix, only to limit those three peaks...

When I use the Concrete in my mastering, It works as expected... but there it is increasing the gain a little but it does stay to the set ceiling.... Why is it not doing so when used on the mix's master bus?

I've been using this approach for a long time and it's worked quite well for me as I do my best not to use any limiters during my mix session... But this is one of those situations where this should have been a quick-fix...?

Thanks for taking time to try helping me...

Keni

Hi Keni,
 
Sorry if I shared stuff you had already known about. I wasn't sure what you may or may not have known so I figured I'd share it just in case. :)
 
Well to be honest, it's been rare for me to have had to use a limiter the way you use using the CC. I'm not even so sure the CC would be the right tool to be honest because though it does brick wall, it's a bit of a different animal. I've not used it on my tracks so I'm really not sure I can be of any help to you. I use it for quickie ITP (In The Project) projects for myself, but that's as far as I go with it as it's not really a good enough limiter for me to finalize with. Great for ideas I do to where I export a quick mp3 idea to my band and drop the file right in our band drop box.
 
Do you know where the peaks are coming from on your tracks? If so, have you tried to control them from the source tracks that are creating them? Most times a compressor takes care of them for me. Like for example, if you know the track and the spot, you can split the clip on both sides while zooming in, and then place the compressor right on the clip at that spot on the clip. This works really well.
 
For me, in case this may help you, my biggest peaks come from snare drums. I control them one of two ways or sometimes both...
 
1. My most popular method is to use a UAD Fatso Jr compressor on the track in the bin. It's absolutely amazing for controlling peaks of this nature. Have you tried a Sonitus or PC bus compressor? That bus compressor is suprisingly good and goes beyond "bus duties" in my realm.
 
2. Method 2 is Zoom in, split the clip, lower the gain on the peaks only and you should be fine. When you zoom in really tight and take care of them, if you were to loop the section you were working in, it usually just comes in as a pop/click sound that won't really degrade the sound you have. 
 
For example, here's a piece of a clip that has a nasty peak in it: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/4Keni1.JPG
 
Here's what it looks like when we zoom in on it: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/4Keni2.JPG
 
If I press play on that spot, all you hear is a "pip" sound. Reducing this spot does nothing to the sound other than lowering the peak or transient, if you will, due to how tight we're zoomed in.
 
You could always try the transient shaper on the peak as well to control how much that transient is lashing out too. It's amazing how well that tool works in situations where peaks may come from transients such as snare drums, percussion, hats, beginning vocal phrases, hard piano strikes, hard acoustic guitar strikes etc.
 
I'd definitely try the above methods before I'd use a limiter on anything. When I use a limiter, it's only when I have mastered something and am finalizing it as that is always my last step. I have used the Waves L-3 a few times when something needed to be limited in a track and it worked perfectly. -2.5 to -3.0 threshold, and whatever output ceiling you decide. It will keep whatever it's limiting right to the numbers. You may need to work with the ARC settings/profile settings if you have the L-3 or the LL-3 (not to be confused with IK Multimedia ARC lol. This ARC stands for "Automatic Release Control")
 
That's how I'd handle it. I know it still doesn't answer your question which I'm sorry I don't have the answer to. When I've used the CC on my master bus, it's worked fine for me. As long as my fader is at 0, whatever I set it for ceiling wise, it stays right there for me. I hope you sort it out, good luck.
 
-Danny

This is really good dialog gentlemen.
Keni I have had similar problems with the Concrete Limiter too.
Danny I did not know about the pre/post thing. 
Guess I do not remember seeing that in the limited instructions on the CL
That are on the cakewalk site.

Something to try today.