• SONAR
  • Next update SONAR X2B...when...x64bit VS 32bit.. the future of Cakewalk? (p.11)
2013/02/20 07:01:45
Freddie H
CakeAlexS

 Nothing I said was incorrect in my last statement. You merely expanded it but again neglected to mention that actually some operations and subroutines (not just registers etc) are specifically optimized for 64 bit code. In a lot of instances some of the assembled code can be far more efficient. 64 bit compilers are different to 32 bit compilers. End of.


+1
2013/02/20 07:13:52
guitardood
Freddie H


@ Guitardood

If you are a programmer as you say that you are, I don’t need to explain all the seatbacks when it comes to x32bit calculations. You should know that already. All CPU Memory and chips are in x64bit today so it needs to convert all x32bit calculations to be feed into the binary stream. Takes time and resources.
 
Funny that you say all LOVE about 32bit? All my friends that are programmers are the opposite to you? Love x64bit and actually talk all the benefits about 128bit DSP calculations.

As a programmer, I absolutely love 64-bit.  Nice to not have to jump thru hoops swapping code in and out to accommodate memory limitations.


My only point is that the DAW and typical FX plugs do not have the need for 64-bit and that it is the memory-hungry soft-synths/samplers which require the tremendous amounts of ram.  Jesus Christ......doesn't anybody read a post before responding with such vitriol?

Best,

2013/02/20 07:17:39
Freddie H
guitardood


Freddie H


@ Guitardood

If you are a programmer as you say that you are, I don’t need to explain all the seatbacks when it comes to x32bit calculations. You should know that already. All CPU Memory and chips are in x64bit today so it needs to convert all x32bit calculations to be feed into the binary stream. Takes time and resources.
 
Funny that you say all LOVE about 32bit? All my friends that are programmers are the opposite to you? Love x64bit and actually talk all the benefits about 128bit DSP calculations.

As a programmer, I absolutely love 64-bit.  Nice to not have to jump thru hoops swapping code in and out to accommodate memory limitations.


My only point is that the DAW and typical FX plugs do not have the need for 64-bit and that it is the memory-hungry soft-synths/samplers which require the tremendous amounts of ram.  Jesus Christ......doesn't anybody read a post before responding with such vitriol?

Best,

Aha I see your point, but that is of compatibility point because the DAWs are in x64bit.
No one want to use bitbridge there for x64bit format.
2013/02/20 07:25:18
Freddie H
guitardood



 
Personally, I do believe that the whole move to 64-bit is hype.  From a DAW perspective.  Does anyone really have any projects, "without memory-starved soft synths", require more than 2gb of RAM?  As a programmer, I would find that very hard to believe.  This is the reason I asked the question the other day about being able to run BFD2 or Machfive 64-bit versions under 32-bit Sonar.  Would get rid of the whole flaky bit-bridge on 90% of my plugins and allow my two memory pigs to operate in 64-bit (found out this is possible with jbridge but haven't tried yet).


I mean seriously.  I had multiple 75+ track projects using tons of both native and UAD plugs and NEVER ran out of memory under Sonar 7.


Best,
Who isn’t using software’s in there production these days?
I get it that you are more into old school guitar “Audio and recording” guy. Sure I see that you don’t see the need of 64bit so much, the only benefits are smoother experience and stable system, recording audio.

 
But most of us use software's and work with digital productions today. Not just A Kick, Snare, a bell & Banjo.  
  
 
If you take a guy like me that use 90% software’s and also many audio tracks with FXs, Vocal dumped Kontakt instruments and Omnisphere, Vienna strings, +100 tracks audio and midi, use tons of plugins, use outboard into the DAW, digital productions, recording mostly only Vocals.
Working with modern POP and Electronic music and film tracks. Working sometimes with TV and film projects etc too..
 
To me X64bit is essential!
2013/02/20 07:27:48
Glyn Barnes
A 32 v 64 bit debate raging! Its like we jumped back to when I first joined the forum in 2009.

That was the time I got my first 64 bit system, and I have just taken delivery of its replacement.

I have used 64 bit Sonar exclusively since the release on 8.5, There are only a few 32 bit plugs I now use regularly and none of which give me any issues in Bitbridge, one by one they are being updated. I may occasionally fire up Kitcore for which I need JBridge.

I do use Kontakt and Superior Drummer a lot and really appreciate the extra memory available. I have 10 times more available than I would on a 32 Bit system. Going back seem inconceivable.

Having said that if you are mostly working with audio and you have a lot of 32 bit plugins that can't be upgraded, or you can't afford to up grade using Sonar 32 bit is a valid option.  I would still use a 64 bit OS.
2013/02/20 08:35:17
TS

Please, Mr CW, give us the X2b, for us to be busy
2013/02/20 08:42:21
guitardood
CakeAlexS


Er guitar dood with all due respect you seem to think you are the only developer here. I own a copy of visual studio too and my degree is in computer science. That doesn't make me a know it all or qualify me to judge what you know or do not know. Nothing I said was incorrect in my last statement. You merely expanded it but again neglected to mention that actually some operations and subroutines (not just registers etc) are specifically optimized for 64 bit code. In a lot of instances some of the assembled code can be far more efficient. 64 bit compilers are different to 32 bit compilers. End of.

Wrong sir!

First, my comment was directed at your statement that "64-bit compilers are different than 32-bit compilers".  This implication that 64-bit code is generated with a different compiler than the 32-bit is a patently false statement.  Most modern compilers have switches that turn on certain optimizations depending on the mode, but is not separate compilers for the different modes.


Secondly, being a casual or even advanced programmer in Visual Studio does not necessarily equate to intimate knowledge of the CPU's machine language, in which all compiled languages eventually get translated.  One of my original classes in computer science (1981) entailed the instructor giving us a cardboard CPU simulator.  It had a sliding piece of cardboard for the accumulator, a sliding piece of cardboard for the register and yet another sliding piece of cardboard for the stack.  Our task was essentially to "be the one-operations-per-minute CPU" and execute the machine language instructions, in binary I might add.  Most of my classmates at the time could not even get past the binary math and the decimal-to-binary conversions let alone understand pushing and popping (EDIT) a stack.  One of my first professional projects entailed writing assembly language interfaces between the high-level Informix 4GL (which compiled to 'C', which compiled to assembler, which compiled to machine code) and Allen-Bradley PLCs (ladder-logic) for a Westinghouse Job Costing system we were developing.  So when it comes to CPU logic and machine code, I'm quite versed.  Not necessarily a know-it-all, but definitely a have-forgotten-more-than-some-will-ever-know.  But, I digress.

To further illustrate my point, here's an example for you:
Note: all created with a single version of the GNU C compiler, specifically: i686-apple-darwin11-llvm-gcc-4.2 (GCC) 4.2.1  This is pretty much the compiler being used on 85% of the non-Microsoft platforms and about 98% of non-Microsoft embedded systems.


helloworld.c


#include <stdio.h>
char *main(int argc,char *argv[])
{
     printf("Hello World\n");
}




Here's the 23-line i386 (32-bit) Assembler that the C compiler creates:
helloworld_i386.s


        .section        __TEXT,__text,regular,pure_instructions
        .globl        _main
        .align        4, 0x90
_main:
        pushl        %ebp
        movl        %esp, %ebp
        subl        $8, %esp
        call        L1$pb
L1$pb:
        popl        %eax
        leal        L_.str-L1$pb(%eax), %eax
        movl        %eax, (%esp)
        call        _puts
        addl        $8, %esp
        popl        %ebp
        ret

        .section        __TEXT,__cstring,cstring_literals
L_.str:
        .asciz         "Hello World"


.subsections_via_symbols



Here's the 69-line x86_64 (64-bit) Assembler source:
helloworld_x86_64.s


        .section        __TEXT,__text,regular,pure_instructions
        .globl        _main
        .align        4, 0x90
_main:
Leh_func_begin1:
        pushq        %rbp
Ltmp0:
        movq        %rsp, %rbp
Ltmp1:
        leaq        L_.str(%rip), %rdi
        popq        %rbp
        jmp        _puts  # TAILCALL
Leh_func_end1:

        .section        __TEXT,__cstring,cstring_literals
L_.str:
        .asciz         "Hello World"

        .section        __TEXT,__eh_frame,coalesced,no_toc+strip_static_syms+live_support
EH_frame0:
Lsection_eh_frame:
Leh_frame_common:
Lset0 = Leh_frame_common_end-Leh_frame_common_begin
        .long        Lset0
Leh_frame_common_begin:
        .long        0
        .byte        1
        .asciz         "zR"
        .byte        1
        .byte        120
        .byte        16
        .byte        1
        .byte        16
        .byte        12
        .byte        7
        .byte        8
        .byte        144
        .byte        1
        .align        3
Leh_frame_common_end:
        .globl        _main.eh
_main.eh:
Lset1 = Leh_frame_end1-Leh_frame_begin1
        .long        Lset1
Leh_frame_begin1:
Lset2 = Leh_frame_begin1-Leh_frame_common
        .long        Lset2
Ltmp2:
        .quad        Leh_func_begin1-Ltmp2
Lset3 = Leh_func_end1-Leh_func_begin1
        .quad        Lset3
        .byte        0
        .byte        4
Lset4 = Ltmp0-Leh_func_begin1
        .long        Lset4
        .byte        14
        .byte        16
        .byte        134
        .byte        2
        .byte        4
Lset5 = Ltmp1-Ltmp0
        .long        Lset5
        .byte        13
        .byte        6
        .align        3
Leh_frame_end1:


.subsections_via_symbols



Perhaps you could share how the 69-line 64-bit assembler code is more optimized than the 23-line 32-bit code, because I certainly don't see it.  The binary versions had a difference of 44 bytes, with the 64-bit version being the larger at 8688 bytes.

Upon runtime, the only performance gains I was able to see were in the the runtime dynamic linker able to load the code 0.012 seconds faster on the x86_64 bit.

I'm sure that a more complex program would benefit, however, that benefit is overshadowed by the instability of using another program in every fx-chain (bit-bridge) for 90% of my plugins(fx which are mostly still 32-bit) as opposed to using jbridge for 10% of my plugins(soft-synths, which btw can easily be frozen and/or converted to audio eliminating the necessity for having the soft-synth active throughout the entire mixing process.  This is for my system.  If you're happy with the status-quo, more power to ya.

And btw, you could have made your point without the personal attacks.  I don't think I'm the only programmer here and only called you on your false statement which you made in such an authoritative posture.

Best,


EDIT: for anyone interested, here is the wikipedia page for the CARDIAC (http://en.wikipedia.org/w...ve_Aid_to_Computation) cardboard computer which actually has 4 slides.  I forgot about the memory cells.

2013/02/20 09:00:36
guitardood
Freddie H


guitardood



 
Personally, I do believe that the whole move to 64-bit is hype.  From a DAW perspective.  Does anyone really have any projects, "without memory-starved soft synths", require more than 2gb of RAM?  As a programmer, I would find that very hard to believe.  This is the reason I asked the question the other day about being able to run BFD2 or Machfive 64-bit versions under 32-bit Sonar.  Would get rid of the whole flaky bit-bridge on 90% of my plugins and allow my two memory pigs to operate in 64-bit (found out this is possible with jbridge but haven't tried yet).


I mean seriously.  I had multiple 75+ track projects using tons of both native and UAD plugs and NEVER ran out of memory under Sonar 7.


Best,
Who isn’t using software’s in there production these days?
I get it that you are more into old school guitar “Audio and recording” guy. Sure I see that you don’t see the need of 64bit so much, the only benefits are smoother experience and stable system, recording audio.

 
But most of us use software's and work with digital productions today. Not just A Kick, Snare, a bell & Banjo.  
  
 
If you take a guy like me that use 90% software’s and also many audio tracks with FXs, Vocal dumped Kontakt instruments and Omnisphere, Vienna strings, +100 tracks audio and midi, use tons of plugins, use outboard into the DAW, digital productions, recording mostly only Vocals.
Working with modern POP and Electronic music and film tracks. Working sometimes with TV and film projects etc too..
 
To me X64bit is essential!

I understand.  I'm pretty sure the 64-bit version sounds 20-40% better also.

Seriously.  Switching from Sonar 32-bit to 64-bit and not using bit-bridge is more than just the $150 upgrade price of sonar.  For me, it means that I have to ditch the 4 UAD-1 cards I have in favor of a UAD-2 card in order to use the 64-bit versions, about a $1500-2500 investment for a comparable system.  It also means ditching my go-to plugs, some of which are 32-bit DX plugs that, IMHO sound leaps and bounds better than the current offerings (e.g. DSP-FX Reverb which sound better than the hardware Lexicon I had vs. Breverb which sounds like I put my headphones in a coffee can and recorded it) and to replace the quality 32-bit plugs would probably cost another $2500-3500.  Can you afford that in this economy?  God bless!  Unfortunately, I was barely able to scrape together the funds for X2 and my Pod HD.


And all due respect, but where are your 100+ track mixes, sans banjo, for our amusement.  FWIW, mine are available below in all their banjo glory as well as the Gizzae album http://www.gizzae.com/Roots.html (which was produced entirely in Sonar 7/8 32-bit with most songs being over 75 tracks).


Best,



2013/02/20 09:51:12
Bub
Dear George Lucas Walt Disney's Cryogenically Preserved Corpse,

Please update all 80 of your Pro Tools desks at your 155,000 Sq./Ft., state of the art, Billion dollar world renowned recording facility that sits on 4000 acres, which is capable of accommodating a 130 piece orchestra and capturing their sound at a sample rate of 192kHz, while simultaneously linked to every other major recording studio on the planet in real time, formerly owned by George Lucas, to something a little more state of the art, say, Sonar X1 Producer 64 bit Edition?

It matters!

Sincerely,

Bub.
2013/02/20 10:06:52
zybermark
W00T! I never thought I would see assembly posted on this forum! :)
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