• SONAR
  • Midi Latency (p.2)
2013/02/20 00:56:51
chuckebaby
sharke


OK the plot thickens and I have more clues, but understand what's going on even less. Here are the steps I'm taking to give me this clue (if anyone happens to have their Sherlock Holmes hat on)

1) I open the project, and without starting playback, I play a few notes on various soft synths. The latency is there. 
2) I then delete an instrument track that has an instance of Battery on it. There is then NO audible latency when I play soft synths. 
3) I start playback. Immediately the latency appears. 
4) I stop playback. The latency remains. 

In fact from the point at which I begin playback, the latency remains whether the project is playing or whether it's stopped, until I close the project and open it again, in which case steps 1-4 apply again. 

I really don't understand. Deleting this instance of Battery without playing anything back removed the latency, but as soon as playback starts the latency remains until I close the project and reload it. 

Any ideas? 
you might have better luck starting you own thread rather than hi-jacking this kids 
 
 
To the OP:
im willing to bet though your either #1 not running your new soundcard as ASIO
or #2 you need to update your driver(or havent installed the right ones)
if this is a new one and you just used the disk that came with it,its not always good enough.
you need the latest updates.
 
ive also noticed sometimes when i install a new soundcard,everyonce in awhile my buffer settings will change back to their defaults.
Dont worry about it,you got plenty of juice to run this thing without any problems. 
2013/02/20 12:08:37
bitflipper
OP: first, determine if this is really an issue with MIDI latency or not. When you record a MIDI track, look at the MIDI notes in the PRV relative to the grid and see if they're all off by a consistent amount. If they're reasonably close and not consistently out of time, then it's not MIDI latency that's the problem.

[I find that when I use hardware synths, recording MIDI first and then recording audio, the audio may lag the MIDI notes slightly (but software synthesizers are always right on the money). I can easily mitigate that by manually inserting a MIDI note that's quantized to the grid and sliding the resulting audio over to exactly match up to it. At that point, I can be confident that any timing errors are the result of my own sloppy playing.]

But the problems described by both sharke and the OP are more likely monitoring problems caused by audio - not MIDI - latency. Audio latency has two primary factors: buffer size and the internal latency of individual plugins. (Plugin Delay Compensation (PDC) is not the culprit; it's job is to slow down the fast plugins so that the laggards can keep up.)

For ASIO and WDM, there is a predictable relationship between buffer size (including the hidden safety buffer mentioned by bvideo) and latency: it's going to be buffer size divided by the sample rate (latency can be reduced by reducing the buffer size or by . Therefore, if you still have unacceptable lag even at small buffer sizes, plugin latency is the more likely culprit.

Often, you cannot do anything about a plugin's internal latency. However, as noted above, you can temporarily disable PDC and tell SONAR to ignore plugin latency. This is the quickest way to determine if your latency is mainly due to plugin latency or to audio buffer size. 

Note that bypassing a plugin or muting a track does not affect PDC, which is still going to be calculated and compensated for as if the plugin were still active. The only way to to figure out which particular one's causing the greatest delay is to completely remove them one by one.

Plugins that cause the greatest latency are going to be the ones that have large internal buffers,  such as equalizers (especially linear-phase such as the LP-64) and reverbs (especially convolution types such as PerfectSpace). It's good practice to leave such plugins completely out of the chain until you've finished tracking.

But if you need a plugin to be active while tracking, it may be enough to turn of PDC. Sometimes the subsequent lack of synchronization between tracks won't be too much of a distraction. 

But if the lack of track synchronization causes problems, you can look at individual plugins, some of which have adjustable internal buffers. PerfectSpace, for example, has a buffer size setting (click on the Info button, then the "set latency" button and choose a smaller buffer - put it back to a larger one after you're done tracking). EQs often have buffer adjustments too. If you use Ozone, you can reduce the latency of its equalizer via the EQ Options dialog. If you use FabFilter Pro-Q, you can choose the "zero latency" (minimum phase) option. AFAIK, SONAR's bundled EQs do not offer this feature, although I can't speak to ProChannel as I am not a user.
2013/02/20 13:08:39
sharke
Hmm some good info BF, thanks. I didn't know that turning the plug off doesn't affect the PDC calculations. First thing I'm doing tonight is removing the two LP-64's I have in the project!
2013/02/20 13:54:46
bvideo
Sonar needs to recompute latency compensation for various changes: adding or deleting effects, changing parameters on some effects that change their delay, etc. However, it's a little unpredictable when the recomputed PDC will kick in. For example, when I first open a project, there is no PDC latency on my external h/w synth routed through a Sonar audio track. But after hitting play, the latency kicks in on that audio track and stays kicked in until I do something that causes Sonar to rethink its PDC. This unpredictability might confound anyone who is trying to find the latent plugin.
2013/02/20 14:09:43
swamptooth
another thing to note with win 8 is to run either in asio mode or wasapi.  never wdm, as it was discontinued with windows 7 and is just a wrapper for backwards compatability at this point.  posting a brief outline of what the project looks like - i.e. synths, number of audio tracks and fx plugins would be helpful as well.  
2013/02/20 14:27:53
guitardood
swamptooth


another thing to note with win 8 is to run either in asio mode or wasapi.  never wdm, as it was discontinued with windows 7 and is just a wrapper for backwards compatability at this point.  posting a brief outline of what the project looks like - i.e. synths, number of audio tracks and fx plugins would be helpful as well.  

Not necessarily true.  In a post over at MotuNation, someone recommended switching to WDM/KS mode on the Motu device.  Just for kicks I tried and was able to drop my I/O buffer on the PCIe-424 from 512 to 64 (interestingly enough I was never able to do under ASIO without clicks and pops) on X2 under Windows 7x64.


This is relevant for my Motu PCIe-424 and may not necessarily apply for any other manufacturer's sound card and have no idea whether it is still applicable under Win8.  Here's the post for whomever is interested: http://www.motunation.com...c.php?f=14&t=49827


Best,

2013/02/20 14:29:24
guitardood
bvideo


Sonar needs to recompute latency compensation for various changes: adding or deleting effects, changing parameters on some effects that change their delay, etc. However, it's a little unpredictable when the recomputed PDC will kick in. For example, when I first open a project, there is no PDC latency on my external h/w synth routed through a Sonar audio track. But after hitting play, the latency kicks in on that audio track and stays kicked in until I do something that causes Sonar to rethink its PDC. This unpredictability might confound anyone who is trying to find the latent plugin.

Could what you're experiencing be related to the starting/stopping/starting of the audio engine?  You could click it off and then on yourself manually which should take some of the unpredictability out of your equation.


Best,


2013/02/20 16:55:15
swamptooth
guitardood


swamptooth


another thing to note with win 8 is to run either in asio mode or wasapi.  never wdm, as it was discontinued with windows 7 and is just a wrapper for backwards compatability at this point.  posting a brief outline of what the project looks like - i.e. synths, number of audio tracks and fx plugins would be helpful as well.  

Not necessarily true.  In a post over at MotuNation, someone recommended switching to WDM/KS mode on the Motu device.  Just for kicks I tried and was able to drop my I/O buffer on the PCIe-424 from 512 to 64 (interestingly enough I was never able to do under ASIO without clicks and pops) on X2 under Windows 7x64.


This is relevant for my Motu PCIe-424 and may not necessarily apply for any other manufacturer's sound card and have no idea whether it is still applicable under Win8.  Here's the post for whomever is interested: http://www.motunation.com...c.php?f=14&t=49827


Best,

Seeing that the motunation post is 5 years old, I would lean to the assumption that motu has updated their drivers to work with wasapi in its newest form.  cake had kinks all over the place in wasapi mode with x1 and those seem to be gone in x2 except in 44.1khz projects for some reason.  wdm does not exist.  it's basically like asio4all.  using asio4all now is tricking software into thinking wdm is asio while wasapi is tricking asio4all into thinking it's wdm.  talk about a reacharound! lol.  


"[font="sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.1875px"]The Windows Kernel Mixer (KMixer[font="sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.1875px"]) is completely gone. There is no direct path from DirectSound to the audio drivers; DirectSound and MME[font="sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.1875px"] are emulated as Session instances. Since the whole point of DirectSound acceleration is to allow hardware to process unmixed audio content, DirectSound cannot be accelerated in this audio model, and DirectSound3D is not supported at all, which also breaks EAX extensions[font="sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.1875px"].[4][font="sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.1875px"] APIs such as ASIO[font="sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.1875px"] and OpenAL[font="sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.1875px"] are not affected." from http://en.wikipedia.org/w...dio_stack_architecture
2013/02/20 18:02:21
bvideo
guitardood


bvideo


Sonar needs to recompute latency compensation for various changes: adding or deleting effects, changing parameters on some effects that change their delay, etc. However, it's a little unpredictable when the recomputed PDC will kick in. For example, when I first open a project, there is no PDC latency on my external h/w synth routed through a Sonar audio track. But after hitting play, the latency kicks in on that audio track and stays kicked in until I do something that causes Sonar to rethink its PDC. This unpredictability might confound anyone who is trying to find the latent plugin.

Could what you're experiencing be related to the starting/stopping/starting of the audio engine?  You could click it off and then on yourself manually which should take some of the unpredictability out of your equation.


Best,


That's a thought; but it turns out clicking the audio engine off then on leaves PDC not engaged in my case. Then hitting play and stop makes it be engaged (latency). Predictable, maybe.
2013/02/20 19:46:03
guitardood
swamptooth


guitardood


swamptooth


another thing to note with win 8 is to run either in asio mode or wasapi.  never wdm, as it was discontinued with windows 7 and is just a wrapper for backwards compatability at this point.  posting a brief outline of what the project looks like - i.e. synths, number of audio tracks and fx plugins would be helpful as well.  

Not necessarily true.  In a post over at MotuNation, someone recommended switching to WDM/KS mode on the Motu device.  Just for kicks I tried and was able to drop my I/O buffer on the PCIe-424 from 512 to 64 (interestingly enough I was never able to do under ASIO without clicks and pops) on X2 under Windows 7x64.


This is relevant for my Motu PCIe-424 and may not necessarily apply for any other manufacturer's sound card and have no idea whether it is still applicable under Win8.  Here's the post for whomever is interested: http://www.motunation.com...c.php?f=14&t=49827


Best,

Seeing that the motunation post is 5 years old, I would lean to the assumption that motu has updated their drivers to work with wasapi in its newest form.  cake had kinks all over the place in wasapi mode with x1 and those seem to be gone in x2 except in 44.1khz projects for some reason.  wdm does not exist.  it's basically like asio4all.  using asio4all now is tricking software into thinking wdm is asio while wasapi is tricking asio4all into thinking it's wdm.  talk about a reacharound! lol.  

Actually, you might want to take a second look at the post.  The dude posting joined in 2007, but the post is dated April/2012.  I hear what you are saying and perhaps Microsoft is no longer supporting WDM but hadn't replaced with a wrapper yet in Win7.  I've switched off WaveRT support in the Motu control panel (latest 424 drivers from 9/2012, 3 2408mk3 & 1 24/io) and switch Sonar to WDM/KS and am getting lower latency (64 Samples) than I've ever gotten running BFD2 (Full 32-piece Custom Kit) & Machfive (4 active instruments) with no pops/clicks and negligible delay from the midi keyboard triggering them.  Go figure.


Best,


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