This is waaaay OT and I realize nobody cares, but I was just trying to remember when it was that I first started reading EM Magazine, so I looked it up on Wikipedia and it mentioned EM started as Polyphony Magazine in 1975, published by PAiA Electronics. That reminded me that when me and my brother were teenagers we read about the PAiA Drum Machine kit, and we had to have it. So we ordered it, but when it arrived we soon realized we were in way over our heads. We had no clue what we were doing with a soldering iron and pretty much torched the hell out of the circuit board. We were completely bummed when it didn't work, but we called PAiA and they let us send it back to them and they soldered everything for us for free. Life was good again.

I just found a link on youtube that shows what the completed machine looked like. A little on the primitive side, but it was allegedly the first programmable drum machine. I think Peter Gabriel actually used it back in the day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pqeLD-o9aM

Sigh! All this arguing and bickering back and forth… I hope it wasn't something I said?  That is to say... my benign statement. 

This forum is full of immature children; if someone disagrees with curtain members then they are shot down in flames.  Anderson’s attitude being the worst he’s the most “hurt little child” of them all and suffering from a double dose of Pollyannaism. I excuse him because he’s the smart one making a buck out of the mug users of the DAW software industry, while the blind gullible devotes absorb the crap that you want someone to tell you.

I post here infrequently because I’m to busy making music. That’s right people; sonar is software to assist in making music. I state this because it seems to me that a significant number of forum members (like backwoods and jb101) think it’s a toy to fill in the hours of an unfulfilled existence. Too much spare time they have, because they no longer can make it as a muso. You need to stop and realise that you are emotionally and artistically crippled and all that is left for you is to play with yourself in your bedrooms and pretend… Oh what might have been… If only…

Thank god for “Bub” and other lateral-thinking individuals. 
They are a breath of fresh air and reality based.

Why not try and make music for a change?

P.S. Oh and before you start john fanboi, there is no apology coming from me for stating the truth. Plus I’m not interested in that fact that you are a grandfather or that you fought in a war for you country, you have already overstated this irrelevances. 

GlennP


Sigh! All this arguing and bickering back and forth… I hope it wasn't something I said?  That is to say... my benign statement. 

This forum is full of immature children; if someone disagrees with curtain members then they are shot down in flames.  Anderson’s attitude being the worst he’s the most “hurt little child” of them all and suffering from a double dose of Pollyannaism. I excuse him because he’s the smart one making a buck out of the mug users of the DAW software industry, while the blind gullible devotes absorb the crap that you want someone to tell you.

I post here infrequently because I’m to busy making music. That’s right people; sonar is software to assist in making music. I state this because it seems to me that a significant number of forum members (like backwoods and jb101) think it’s a toy to fill in the hours of an unfulfilled existence. Too much spare time they have, because they no longer can make it as a muso. You need to stop and realise that you are emotionally and artistically crippled and all that is left for you is to play with yourself in your bedrooms and pretend… Oh what might have been… If only…

Thank god for “Bub” and other lateral-thinking individuals. 
They are a breath of fresh air and reality based.

Why not try and make music for a change?

P.S. Oh and before you start john fanboi, there is no apology coming from me for stating the truth. Plus I’m not interested in that fact that you are a grandfather or that you fought in a war for you country, you have already overstated this irrelevances. 

So what is the point your trying to make? Your unhappy because_______?


Tom

mmmm...maybe if the article in question was done a few weeks later the assessment might have been different.

But, you know, I have yet to see any DAW have a 'flawless' workflow or any of that...they ALL have issues at one point or another. 

Deal with it.....

GlennP


Sigh! All this arguing and bickering back and forth… I hope it wasn't something I said?  That is to say... my benign statement. 

This forum is full of immature children; if someone disagrees with curtain members then they are shot down in flames.  Anderson’s attitude being the worst he’s the most “hurt little child” of them all and suffering from a double dose of Pollyannaism. I excuse him because he’s the smart one making a buck out of the mug users of the DAW software industry, while the blind gullible devotes absorb the crap that you want someone to tell you.

I post here infrequently because I’m to busy making music. That’s right people; sonar is software to assist in making music. I state this because it seems to me that a significant number of forum members (like backwoods and jb101) think it’s a toy to fill in the hours of an unfulfilled existence. Too much spare time they have, because they no longer can make it as a muso. You need to stop and realise that you are emotionally and artistically crippled and all that is left for you is to play with yourself in your bedrooms and pretend… Oh what might have been… If only…

Thank god for “Bub” and other lateral-thinking individuals. 
They are a breath of fresh air and reality based.

Why not try and make music for a change?

P.S. Oh and before you start john fanboi, there is no apology coming from me for stating the truth. Plus I’m not interested in that fact that you are a grandfather or that you fought in a war for you country, you have already overstated this irrelevances. 

Well, Glenn, where to start..
 
I, personally, use Sonar as a tool for my work.  It works for me, and I earn a good living from it.  I have been a professional musician and tutor for thirty years.  That is more than I expect you can say.
 
The rest of your post is just plain rude.  It perfectly illustrates the kind of forum member I was describing earlier.  The word hypocritical comes to mind.
 
Anyway, no hard feelings here.  You don't know me so your attempts at character assassination are meaningless, and puerile.  You are obviously unhappy.
 
I hope your experiences improve soon.

Hi Craig,
 
 Are you aware that one of the reasons that the X2 roll out seemed so serene is that a lot less people bothered to buy it than X1 or X1E.

http://www.roland.com/ir/pdf/2013/20130208_2.pdf

 "Dec 31 2013: [Professional video, professional audio and computer music equipment] 
With regard to professional video equipment, robust sales of all-in-one AV mixers for live online video streaming 
were recorded, but sales of professional audio equipment were low primarily in the United States and Europe. In 
computer music equipment, however, sales of music production software and peripheral equipment were weak. As a result, net sales for this segment fell by 13.4% year on year to ¥3,353 million."


I did a little more research... and here's the news from 

http://www.roland.com/ir/pdf/2012/20120509.pdf

"March 31, 2012: [Professional video, professional audio and computer music equipment]
With respect to professional audio equipment, sales were sluggish against a backdrop of decreased corporate capital
expenditure in Japan and Europe, but in the case of professional video equipment, sales of new all-in-one AV
mixers for live online video streaming contributed to the posting of year-on-year sales growth. Computer music
equipment, on the other hand, saw sales of music production software and portable recorders decline. As a result, net sales for this segment fell by 11.6% year on year, to ¥5,211 million."


It's difficult to locate specific descriptions of X1 initial sales in the older reports but one thing seems apparent; All that dissatisfaction voiced when X1 rolled out... it was not just make believe... it was the reaction of the market. 


Cakewalk and Roland may have told us that the roll out was the most successful ever but the accountants used this description:


http://www.roland.com/ir/...alResultsMarch2011.pdf


"sales of computer music equipment and portable recorders were weak, especially in Japan and North America, despite our efforts to stimulate the demand through the introduction of new products" 



X2 seemed to have a smaller advertising budget than the more successful X1 and X1E versions... it was the quietest... least hyped roll out I have ever seen. 

I was impressed by that. It seemed smart, appropriate, and perhaps an indication that someone at Roland understands the dynamic of the market. 

I also noticed that from mid summer 2012 through the present that the Roland staff members that debated and bickered with their disappointed and unsatisfied customers back in 2011 did not make the same sort of frequent and dramatized appearances that they had when X1 was rolled out. That helped make the roll out seem less like a comical tragedy and more like a pragmatic acknowledgement that those reports I linked to above actually mean something. 

I agree with you Craig, I think it is indisputable that the X2 roll out was quiet and calm... later when people actually started using X2 the forum may have changed... but the roll out seemed real calm. It seemed like that respectful silence you encounter when you are at a funeral home.

There happens to be a reason it was calm; Lots of folks... people like myself... made the decision, for the first time in 18 years... to not pay the annual upgrade fee. 

I declined to buy X2 and this was the first time since I became a Cakewalk customer that I have not upgraded. I hope that Roland will recognize that Cakewalk is not retaining its customers and that it takes the time to learn the reason why that is.


I find it sadly ironic that a magazine with circulation of 8,500 paid printed copies high lights it's irrelevance by distributing 6 month old "news" that never asks or answers any of the questions that might explain why the roll out has been generally ignored by the public and unheralded by it's creators.


I agree with John when he says:

"The whole tone and acceptance of X2 was totally different when it came out. Even though it also had its share of issues. That is a fact and a study of the period will testify."

I went out and found the studies.


When I paid for my X1E upgrade... I never downloaded it... I made that payment with a sense of benign resignation and hoped Cakewalk wouldn't have to lay off the important people. 

When I didn't pay for the X2 upgrade... it was because Cakewalk had finally mismanaged the business of retaining me as an existing customer to the point where I could not send in any money in good faith.

Now I'm reading about layoffs.


There is a story there... it is a complicated story about a two decade business relationship made untenable by the fact that the supplier simply doesn't seem to want to know what its departing customers actually want  to buy.

best regards,
mike

GlennP


Sigh! All this arguing and bickering back and forth… I hope it wasn't something I said?  That is to say... my benign statement. 

This forum is full of immature children; if someone disagrees with curtain members then they are shot down in flames.  Anderson’s attitude being the worst he’s the most “hurt little child” of them all and suffering from a double dose of Pollyannaism. I excuse him because he’s the smart one making a buck out of the mug users of the DAW software industry, while the blind gullible devotes absorb the crap that you want someone to tell you.

I post here infrequently because I’m to busy making music. That’s right people; sonar is software to assist in making music. I state this because it seems to me that a significant number of forum members (like backwoods and jb101) think it’s a toy to fill in the hours of an unfulfilled existence. Too much spare time they have, because they no longer can make it as a muso. You need to stop and realise that you are emotionally and artistically crippled and all that is left for you is to play with yourself in your bedrooms and pretend… Oh what might have been… If only…

Thank god for “Bub” and other lateral-thinking individuals. 
They are a breath of fresh air and reality based.

Why not try and make music for a change?

P.S. Oh and before you start john fanboi, there is no apology coming from me for stating the truth. Plus I’m not interested in that fact that you are a grandfather or that you fought in a war for you country, you have already overstated this irrelevances. 

im sure you could have worded your first post a little different to try and make your point.
and this post appears that,at first;you feel bad if its something you said to start a war amoung users here.
but then go on to insult craig calling him a child.
 
listen man,im not going to insult you by claiming im making productive music with great results with sonar x2.
but i will say,when x2 was released this forum was a happy place,i remember.
i was one of the people quoted on craigs post saying;
"Chuckebaby:
IM LOVIN LIFE WITH X2 !!!!

having alot of fun..less posting hre on the forum and more making music.
great thread man.
 
this was me,and those were others feeling the same way.
im just sure what your point is in this whole thread?
do you not like craig ? you feel its your duty to let the users know your opinions?
 
that cool,but forgive me,if ive never seen you here asking for help with your issues or what are they?
you havent really covered that yet.
 
i will agree with one thing,alot of people hang out here rather than making music with sonar.
including myself.
 
i think there are better ways to convey your opinions and i think you'd agree with me when i say your thread has caused quite a stir and boiled tempers,is that really what you wanted?
 
 

Geez, why even jump in this one, but here it goes.

Mike, you'd be the first one to jump on general statistics you've given above.  They don't state how many copies were sold of SONAR, or divide up portable recorders from software other than SONAR.  And if overall msuic production ales were bad, imagine how much worse sales would have been X2 hadn't been released.  I see your point - sales were probably disappointing, as well as for the entire industry, as well as the entire ecomony.  4 years into the "recovery"  still feels like recession.  I don't think Cake or even Roland has much control over the general ecomonic conditions. 

As far as the controversy over this roll-out thread, two people have kept this thread going.  Bub, who's continued involvement in SONAR with all the problems he has with every version leads me to wonder about unresolved masochistic issues.  That is when I think about it at all, which isn't often but only in threads like this. I simply wonder why he hasn't moved to a DAW that does work for him.

The other seems to GlennP.  I don't know of Mr. p, but I know of Craig Anterton.  I've been reading his music and music tech writings for a long time - too long to admit to.  He edits (or is it publishes?) Electronic Musician as well as writes in it, does the same for the online Harmony-Central, writes in other magazines and does a SONAR column for SOS, prehaps the most read music tech magazine in the world.  He seems to make a living from all that, as well as travelling and performing around the world (or Europe/USA anyway).  Which doesn't make him right about everything music and technology, but certainly gives some weight to his statements and even opinions.  To slag him, GlennP, with ad hominiem attacks just shows the paucity of your arguements and a littleness.

Mr. Anderton already destroyed your points early in this thread - have gave facts and figures to back up his statements.  He hasn't come back since he doesn't have to.  I suppose the next line in your arguements is the hitler one.  That would be about par for the course.  Give it up, man, for gods' sake.  He sank your battleship.

@

chuckebaby

i will agree with one thing,alot of people hang out here rather than making music with sonar.
including myself.

You got me thinking about this so I went and checked my Audio Projects folder, and my backup drive. I was actually shocked that I have so many songs I'm working on and have completed. 132 all totaled. About 3/4 completed, some new, some I'm in the process of remixing/remastering. Some of it was old band demo's I ripped from the original 8-track masters, some old audio restoration things, covers, original songs. There's a lot of crap there. And that's not counting the stuff I've collaborated on that I don't have the projects to, and the 50 or so songs I lost in an HDD crash years ago. I bet all totaled, I've done or been involved with well over 200 projects in Sonar over the years.

Think about how much time that is inside a program ... and I'm just a hobbyist. I'm sure there's guys out there with a hell of a lot more than that.

It actually helps to take a break ever 15 ~ 20 minutes when mixing/mastering. Helps with that whole 'tired ear' thing. I have internet access on my DAW, so I pop on over to the forum. I religiously take breaks now because I'm using headphones only. Keeps my ears from ringing too bad.

It's winter ... you see me here a lot more this time of year because I can't work outside. I won't be here near as much come this spring. Especially this year. We moved to a new house and I have a lot of outside chores to do. Actually, I haven't been here as much as I normally am this year because I had a lot of work to do in the new house.

Gee, maybe that accounts for why X2's release was so quiet. Honestly, it probably does ...

When I started using X2, there was already a Quick Fix out. I was in the process of moving from Iowa to Missouri and didn't have time to use it when it first came out. There were some show stopping bugs in it that showed up on my system. I'm not saying it happened to everyone and I'm not going to call them a liar or any crap like that if anyone comes in and says they didn't see anything wrong, but on my system there were bugs that made it pretty much unusable. As soon as I ran in to it, I checked for a Quick Fix, installed it, and it fixed it, and I didn't say much about it. But I can assure you that if I would have started using X2 on day 1 like I did X1 and ran in to it, I would have been here, and because of people like John going to any length he possibly can to squelch any problem he can with Sonar, it wouldn't have been pretty.

This is directed at nobody in particular.

This thread is a giant pile of steamy bashing.  I am not speaking of the original post - the original poster expressed an opinion on something Mr Anderton had written in a publication.  OK, agree or disagree with either side - no problem.

The thread quickly descended into a dark, mean-spirited bunch of personal bashing, and has largely remained there.

Please folks - just please.  Enough of the bashing.

Can we get back to being helpful and supportive of each other?  Learning from each other?  Respecting each other's differences and differences of opinion?

In general terms, there are those with significant impediments to getting things done with Sonar, there are those with reasonable productivity, and there are those with good productivity with Sonar.  These are not cut and dried classifications - just generalities.

In some cases, impediments in Sonar are caused by bugs, caused by system issues, and/or caused by an incomplete understanding of how to do things (either with Sonar, or just audio production).

I think that in all cases, flame-free communication and analysis are the best approach to us helping each other out, for any of the above situations.

Bob Bone