I guess one could suggest that one should be awfully nervous about mentioning how well X2 has worked. Oh, BTW...better to give ppl warning about how poorly it runs...

Geeesh...the guy only mentioned how it was a smooth rollout of a product, and look at the fracking mess this thread turned into....

trimph1

I guess one could suggest that one should be awfully nervous about mentioning how well X2 has worked. Oh, BTW...better to give ppl warning about how poorly it runs...

Geeesh...the guy only mentioned how it was a smooth rollout of a product, and look at the fracking mess this thread turned into....

It had nothing to do with how well it works.

But again. You're probably right. I'm probably wrong. Always Am it seems.

Bub

Research? Have you ever given me one iota of credit for all the people I have helped here or the positive things I have said about X2? Nope. Instead you accuse me of not bothering to do research. I think if you check ... I'm a lot more positive about X2 than some people here would have you believe.

Unsuccessful deflection. I never disputed that you help people, and I feel it's disingenuous for you to try to act like I was. Nor do I care whether you're positive or negative about X2. I don't care if you hate it or love it. Your comments were directed at me personally and the article I wrote. I was responding specifically to your lack of research about what was going on in the forum around the time my article was written.
 
You could have said "How can you justify saying it was a smooth rollout? I recall it being pretty rough" and I would have answered you with what I saw that justified my opinion. But you shot from the hip and jumped to conclusions that fit your particular viewpoint. Wouldn't it make sense to ask for clarification first?
 
(FYI - readers don't necessarily want an "unbiased consumer" viewpoint. They want an "unbiased professional" viewpoint from someone who has put a piece of software through hundreds of hours of operation, and has worked with enough other software to formulate a comparison based on experience. I was doing demanding audio-for-video projects within a few hours of installing X2, without problems. My experience paralled all the others who commented on X2's smooth rollout.)
 
I don't think the way to write a review is to say "In my experience. X2 performed extraordinarily well, especially for a new release. However, there are people who are finding X2 problematic, so I think you should believe them instead of what I've experienced directly."
 
Would that make sense?
 
You said: "You can't dispute the main without coming off like an a**hole." You can dispute me all you want. How people judge your comments is their decision, not mine.
 
You said: "We all know his article isn't accurate." I didn't realize you spoke for this entire community, and that they all agreed with you. I guess the quotes I posted kind of just floated down from space. Or maybe I hacked this BBS and posted them to justify my opinion.
 
You said: "but if you say anything, then you're the bad guy, know what I mean?" Again, you can say anything you want (just spell my name right!). How other people judge your comments is their decision, not mine.
 
I don't have a problem with who you are. I have a problem with you making unfounded accusations. You said: "the fact that Craig sees it, but chooses to ignore it ... well, that's his prerogative." I didn't realize that you could get inside my head, and see that I was deliberately choosing to ignore things.
 
That is total bullsh*t and that's why I'm calling you on it.
 
OF COURSE there were negative comments. OF COURSE there are bugs when software is introduced. But was the rollout of X2 smoother than previous ones? I didn't say it was a bug-free rollout. I didn't say the forum had a unanimous lovefest with Sonar X2. I maintain that X2 was still a much smoother rollout than X1 or 8. Maybe 7, too, now that I think about it. And I maintain the forum community by and large recognized it as such.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Paul P


mudgel:

"craig
I think you expect too much from the current forum crop to think that they possess the necessary ability to reason on such things.
How could when the article was written have a bearing on the meaning of the words.
Wonder how many will come back to apologise for speaking/writing before they've ascertained the actual facts.

Anderton:
"Admittedly, it is difficult to reason people out of positions they didn't use reason to attain. And discussions would be more meaningful if they were conducted with people who live in fact-based worlds. But, that's life. Just to put things in perspective, it's not like I'm dealing with brutal dictators slaughtering innocent civilians, or scam artists preying on 93-year-old widows. It could be a whole lot worse. "

Between the two of you, you've insulted just about everyone in this community.

Way to go.

If you think my comments were directed at this entire community instead of the few people who engaged in personal attacks, suffice it say you're wrong. Wasn't the line about "it's not like I'm dealing with brutal dictators slaughtering innocent civilians, or scam artists preying on 93-year-old widows" a clue? I promise to include a next time when I do the reductio ad absurdum thang.

Anderton

Bub

Research? Have you ever given me one iota of credit for all the people I have helped here or the positive things I have said about X2? Nope. Instead you accuse me of not bothering to do research. I think if you check ... I'm a lot more positive about X2 than some people here would have you believe.

You said: "but if you say anything, then you're the bad guy, know what I mean?" Again, you can say anything you want (just spell my name right!). How other people judge your comments is their decision, not mine.

Yep. I'm the bad guy.

Thanks for your response.

jsg


One can't fully trust the vast majority of software "reviews" in the major commercial music magazines for several reasons:
 
1.  An old-boy's network of doing favors for each other (software publishers/magazines)
2.  The reviewer tinkers with the program for a week or so and only uses 1/4 of its features or so (I could be wrong, but Anderton mentioned, I think, that he doesn't use the staff view for example)
3.  Real-world issues other than installation (i.e. bugs) are seldom talked about.  The pros and cons section of Sound on Sound reviews, for example, rarely mention bugs, even though programming errors are abundant in X2a, albeit much fewer than in X1 and its subsequent releases 
  

1. IIRC, Cakewalk doesn't advertise very often in EM. But, I don't know who's advertising in the magazine until I receive the copy in the mail. Even the page proofs I get for proofing after the article is written don't have ads. What's more, we review lots of products from companies that don't advertise in EM. In fact, we reviewed iZotope Iris and Alloy 2, and Trash is in an upcoming issue. Iris even got an Editor's Choice award. Yet iZotope has NEVER advertised in EM, and has expressed zero interest in ever advertising in EM. We review products based on what we think readers want to read about, because if readers don't buy the magazine, we're toast.
 
2. True, I don't use staff view. But that's because it's pretty primitive. While evalulating X2 I found it was still primitive, which is why I wrote:
 
So What’s Missing? Staff-view fans—or rather, those who’d like to be staff-view fans—will find no improvements, although Music XML export facilitates working with notation programs. Also, V-Studio control surface development always lags behind the software itself, but I’ve confirmed this will be addressed in the next update [it was, FYI]. Three other X1 complaints—the inability to customize the Control Bar (especially for smaller screens), no VST3 support, and less flexible colorization options than 8.5—remain.
 
As to how much time reviewers "tinker" with programs, of course that varies from one reviewer to the next. I'm always suspicious when a "review" is accompanied by the same screen shot that's on the manufacturer's web site - was it so very hard to hit "print screen" in Windows or open "grab" with the Mac? But, time spent with the program also has to be balanced with getting the review published in a timely fashion. In my case, I'm fortunate in that I can often get beta copies of software prior to release, so I get to have experience with it. Then when I receive the release copy, I can see whether any problems I found in the beta were addressed, and whether any features were added. This takes nowhere near as long as reviewing a program "from scratch."
 
3. I think we all accept that software has bugs. Again, lead times are an issue. Sometimes serious bugs are fixed in the months between reviewing something and when the magazine hits the newsstand; sometimes not. And, because they're print and permanent, magazines have a long shelf life. So, there's a tendency to concentrate on things that won't change. which isn't always the case with bugs.

Bub

Anderton

Bub

Research? Have you ever given me one iota of credit for all the people I have helped here or the positive things I have said about X2? Nope. Instead you accuse me of not bothering to do research. I think if you check ... I'm a lot more positive about X2 than some people here would have you believe.

You said: "but if you say anything, then you're the bad guy, know what I mean?" Again, you can say anything you want (just spell my name right!). How other people judge your comments is their decision, not mine.

Yep. I'm the bad guy.

Thanks for your response.

For the record...I don't think you're a bad guy. Besides, you spell my name right
 
You did one post recently where you were again a little too hasty in drawing conclusions, and you gave a heartfelt apology to the poster. I complimented you on that and said I wished more people in forums could take that attitude. That's why I don't think you're a bad guy...just a little too prone to hit "Post Message" before thinking things through.
 
Of course, neither I, nor anyone else on this forum, nor any other forum, has EVER done that. You are the only person ever in the history of the internet to hit "Post Message" before thinking things through.

Mr. Anderton I remember making a similar comment when the X2 release was out for a week or so. It seemed to me that it was very, as you put it "smooth" to me. 

I noticed a very real change in how the forum was responding to it and that it was mostly very positive. It was without a doubt far better a response then it was when X1 was released.    

I find it a shame that you have had to deal with the thoughtless comments in this and other threads.

I can not apologize for the forum but I do offer my sincerest apology to you from me for having not been able to put an end to it.



   

Hey, no worries. By and large this is a great forum, I've learned a lot here, and I try to give back as much as I can.

Snarky or ill-informed comments go with the territory. I've been a public figure for 45 years; I have a pretty thick skin, and truly believe people are entitled to their own opinions...I just don't think they're entitled to their own facts, which is when I take issue and start getting snarky in return.

This is nothing compared to the two times I got death threats. You think Bub would ever do that? Not in a million years.

vintagevibe

Anderton

Admittedly, it is difficult to reason people out of positions they didn't use reason to attain. 

That's the best quote I've seen in a long time.  I should put it in my signature!

Glad you liked it
 
Actually you're a fine example of someone with a realistic view of Sonar and software in general. FWIW, my "Staff View remains primitive" under the reviews "Cons" section is an hommage to your comments, and was directly inspired by same. I do pay attention to the negatives; for many people, Staff View is a big one and is worth pointing out. Just because it doesn't matter to me is irrelevant; it matters to some people, and therefore needs to be mentioned.