I know you didn't. I just find the concept funny. You're good peeps. Cheers.

Oh and thanks for those links, js516. I'll be taking a close look at those. I will say again though that perhaps Cake should look into letting a third party notation software developer write something that can be integrated with Sonar and more specifically something dockable.

Heather, Once I have a note of a given duration on the staff, I use the pen and drag copies of it since the duration thing has always been a messed up function.  This is faster for me once I have a few 8ths, qtrs, etc scattered around.

The Score Editor in Cubase.

 
Wow, John!  A picture speaks a thousand words. 
 
But--Cakewalk's Staff View has never been anything close to that, and never tried to be.  The impression I'm getting from some people is it's "broken", but I don't find that to be true.  I'm very much in favor of improvements, I just don't understand why anybody would expect it to be something it's never been, or compare it to something like the Score Editor you pictured.  That looks fantastic and I'd love to have something like that in Sonar, no doubt.  But is that a realistic expectation for Sonar?  It would be exciting to see it happen.  If that's what a person really needs, however, why would that person not choose to go with Cubase or whatever? 
 
Add my voice to the petition for an improved Staff View, for certain.  I simply don't understand the attitude that often seems to go with it.

Sounds like they should bake up a paid, dockable add on for those really interested in a fully functional notation solution. That is a lot of designing and coding, thus the high price of other pro notation software. I'd pay for it if it was an option.

 
That seems like a really reasonable solution.  I'd pay for a full-featured notation option in Sonar, without hesitation (within reason). 

dubdisciple


John, using notation in and of itself is not snobbish.  it is the idea that proposing that anyone who does not use that feature is somehow less professional that is the snobbish component.  Like i said, a lot of times it is not what is said but how it is said.  When remarks become personal and insulting, the focus of the conversation tends to get lost. People who are somewhat apathetic about the issue suddenly become "I'm against whatever that jackass is for" creeps in. The very first post i ever read by vintagevibe was a post he started and broadly insulted those who did not use staff view and claimed they could not read music. That tone will not get you anywhere except those who are already on your side.

I do feel sympathy for those who need improvements just like i feel for those who want improvements in other areas. Being pragmatic, I'm not going to cry if the feature is lost, but certainly have no desire to see it go or diminish quality. I feel that improvements make the program more valuable as a whole to users of all professional levels and styles.  It's just hard to assist a fight for those who clearly feel they are superior.

All I can say is I am on your side in that I hear what you are saying and I agree with it. There is no place for anyone attacking anyone personally.  Attack ideas but never attack people. We are all in this together as users. We should all stick together as users.

After all that is what a user's forum is all about anyway.

I feel complimented in that you thought you could address me in stating your views. That is a very high compliment to me anyway. The fact that you thought I would listen is important to me. And I have.

Thank you.

I still want better notation.

Notation has been in Sonar from the beginning. It goes way back before Sonar, before looping, before audio snap. It was in Pro 8 and Pro Audio 9. So its part of the program an I would be really upset if it became an option.

 
I don't think he's calling for it to become an option in its present form, but to ADD an entirely new full-featured notation feature.  I think it's reasonable to expect such a feature would add to the Sonar price-tag, and making it an option would mean only the people who really need it would have to pay for it.  It would take absolutely nothing away from the current model.  Perfect solution, in my opinion.

dubdisciple

Being pragmatic, I'm not going to cry if the feature is lost, but certainly have no desire to see it go or diminish quality. I feel that improvements make the program more valuable as a whole to users of all professional levels and styles.  It's just hard to assist a fight for those who clearly feel they are superior.

I think you're presenting a fair position with your viewpoint and expressing it in a respectful and professional manner. Your point about other 'arrogant'-sounding posts is clear. I think part of that tone though maybe more expressing extreme frustration on the topic than just pure arrogance.
 
But I think your thought above was not very clear and compelling, and tries to be very politically correct, which doesn't help much in the conversation- if you really wouldn't cry if something like SV was eliminated, I cannot understand how you can say that you wouldn't like to see it go or diminish in quality. If improvements can make the program more valuable to all users, then the notion of professional users using X1 that do not use SV implies just the opposite.
 
Don't view this as a battle between parties who feel superior or not, think about it as a long-standing struggle for users that have been crying for some attention from Cakewalk over the course of many years now, cry that seems to not have been seriously considered as we were expecting.
 
In my particular case, for whatever it is worth it, I almost switched to Cubase recently after having been a Cakewalk/Sonar user for about 20 years. I hesitated for several hours that day, as I've done in several other opportunities in the past few years. I quite dislike the need to have to retrain myself, so again, put it off until X2 is released. But I'm definitely on the verge, and willing to do it if need be, as cannot accept anymore using a DAW that falls dramatically behind its competition in aspects that are critical to my core use, e.g. SV, VST3, MIDI/controller 'editing'.
 
 

HeatherHaze

The Score Editor in Cubase.

 
Wow, John!  A picture speaks a thousand words. 
 
But--Cakewalk's Staff View has never been anything close to that, and never tried to be.  The impression I'm getting from some people is it's "broken", but I don't find that to be true.  I'm very much in favor of improvements, I just don't understand why anybody would expect it to be something it's never been, or compare it to something like the Score Editor you pictured.  That looks fantastic and I'd love to have something like that in Sonar, no doubt.  But is that a realistic expectation for Sonar?  It would be exciting to see it happen.  If that's what a person really needs, however, why would that person not choose to go with Cubase or whatever? 
 
Add my voice to the petition for an improved Staff View, for certain.  I simply don't understand the attitude that often seems to go with it.

Well it wasn't always that complete or that good. It was better than Pro Audio's but not by much.
Same is true of Logic. They have both evolved their notation and take pride in it.

Because X1 has notation it should be at least as good as Logic's and Cubase's. We should not be penalized because we choose an American made DAW.

The basics are there in the code of X1 it just needs some tender loving care and a will to get it done.

We were asked by CW about notation a while back in a survey. They said it was something they were contemplating improving. They did say it would be a while though. Well its been a while so I'm looking for it in the next version or soon after.


BTW now that I am talking to you directly I want you to know that I find your posts to be excellent. I am very glad you are here. 

Gus, you are correct in that my statement was not clear.  Maybe a better choice of words would be that if it were to go, it would not make me stop using Sonar. The truth is that there are many features in Sonar and many programs i use that I never use and rarely think about them because they simply are inapplicable until I am directly asked. I don't know  of any motion graphics artist that uses the CC Mr Mercury filter in After Effects but  i doubt any of them would petition it have it removed because  it is usually better to have it and not need it than the reverse.

Your point is well taken.  I know i shouldn't see this is a battle of arrogance, but humans tend to respond better to people who come off as a little more likable regardless of the topic.

I think heather has the most reasonable solution; a version of sonar with added functionality for those willing to pay for it.  i know one of my considerations for choosing Sonar over Cubase or Pro tools was price.  If a feature I don't use causes the price to be in the range of Cubase then i might as well use Cubase.