• SONAR
  • Who owns your mix? - SOLVED! (p.12)
2013/01/22 09:09:32
John
What did you get for free?
2013/01/22 09:49:27
Chregg
"We can use a technique anytime we want on any project. We are not in danger of being sued for using techniques. If this were the case, quite a few people owe Mutt Lange some major royalty money for using "whisper tracks" all over their productions." lol I know eh, never heard that before "i'm suing you, i heard the same sidechain technique used on anutha record, that you used on mine" lol take me to court lol
2013/01/22 10:15:04
Danny Danzi
John


What did you get for free?


I'm surprised you made it that far, John. He lost me in the first few words of that. LOL!
2013/01/22 12:52:05
John
Danny Danzi


John


What did you get for free?


I'm surprised you made it that far, John. He lost me in the first few words of that. LOL!


LOL I'm after some clarification. I have no idea what he is on about. I don't know why he is after your post either. Maybe I just don't understand  anything. I was thinking how long and how hard I worked to get where I am. It wasn't without cost. I think you paid a price too. We love what we do but thinking it was given to us bothers me. Maybe it shouldn't but it does. 



2013/01/22 13:29:48
sharke
DigitalBoston

unlike us less than pro's who would share such knowledge since we got it for free,iv seen some skilled Audio eng in my days, and never once have anyone told me to leave the room im about to use my secret fadder crossover move, i learned at MIT back in the 70s. but im noone and have more skill as a musician that a eng, but eather way its the bands tune's they wrote it .they have all the rights to content, till they sell there songs to a lable and get that 4% and have to tour 3-4 years like a bus full of slaves
 where do i sign up??

Of course they have the right to their own content. That's why they get the finished WAV. The project file the mixer uses, with all the mixing parameters and what-not, belongs to the engineer. How hard is this to understand? 
2013/01/22 13:43:48
gunboatdiplomacy
TraceyStudios
If I asked a photographer to take pictures and digitally manupulate them, I would expect all the photoshop files also. If I need to edit them or change them or need to send in a differrent format, whatever. They would never have existed if I didn't pay for them to be created. Mixes are no differrent! I paid to have the guitars eq'd, the bass eq'd, automation etc. Why would I not get that back also. If I ever need or want to change them, I would have it. Again, it would never have existed if I hadn't paid for the guy to do it!
i know this problem is solved, but i want to reinforce that you are totally wrong about how 99% of all professional wedding photographers work. Back in the day, they did NOT provide you with negatives. And these days, they do NOT provide RAW files. Just the retouched files of a specified size. I imagine you are not married or have never hired a pro photographer, but this is how it works. I think that your lack of knowledge of one kind of service is reflected in the lack of another.
 
EDIT
i got through the first page and then halfway through the second page (just before danny's comments) and then i posted this. then i read the entire thread from page 4 and even discovered the hair cut analogy. so everything has been said and it's a terribly enlightening discussion that reveals that in this digital day and age, most people lack a basic understanding of copyright and ownership. People who might torrent and trade software and movies all of a sudden might throw a hissy-fit at the thought of someone taking their material (not saying the OP does this, but generally speaking). so everyone has to bone up on their copyright knowledge and someday we can get some of the wonky and and antiquated laws changed for the 21st century in a way that benefits artists (not clearinghouses, publishers, or studios)
 
you provide 16 stems for a song, and the guy provides you with 1 file back. I don't see what's so hard to grasp. you still own the copyright, but what good is his file going to do you? it's like getting a haircut and asking to take home the clippings.

2013/01/22 13:56:22
slartabartfast
I think it is rather interesting how many of the 'engineer' posters in this thread seem to have some bizarre belief that they have some special ownership of the artists intellectual property just because they have tweaked a knob or moved a slider.  If a recording studio is hired by an artist to record, they are nothing more than a contractor.  A contractor who has absolutely no right to any of the work produced.  In fact, keeping copies of the recorded work after the contract is completed without the express permission of the artist is illegal and represents an interesting liability (what happens if copies escape?)   Any special ju-ju that the engineer uses to create the recording actually become the property of the artist unless there is a special agreement in advance otherwise.  If the engineer re-uses that same 'special' sound without the artist's permission it could be grounds for a pretty solid lawsuit against the studio.  While this does not give the artist ownership of the intermediary products of the recording, it clearly makes re-using them a liability for the engineer unless there is some clear intent of ownership drawn up in the agreement.



OK you state all this as a fact, but I would be interested in how you determine that a contractor has no right to any work he produces.


Example: Crabgrass Symphony Society commissions a work to be played on the opening day of the season. Since they pay the composer, but do not want to be liable for his benefits social security tax, witholding etc. they execute a contract saying that he is an independent contractor, give him the money and issue a W-9. The contract only requires him to deliver the composition, and is mute on the ownership or transfer of copyright, and does not state that it is a work for hire. Under black letter copyright law he retains ownership of the composition regardless of the fact that he is a contractor. 


Being a contractor per se does not transfer or  invalidate ownership of the work product. If the contract he signs states that ownership is transferred unambiguously, or states that it is a "work for hire," (and it meets the statutory requirements) then there is a basis to believe that. Absent that clarification, then you would have to depend on what was "understood" between the contractor and his employer, and argue in court that an unwritten contract did include such a transfer of rights. You could use the standard industry practice to buttress your understanding of the situation. If no recording/mixing/mastering engineer has ever asserted ownership to his rights in the phonorecord that is his creation under law, then you could say that his belief that he has such ownership was so bizarre that it could not have been the understanding that makes up the unwritten contract. But that is far from a fact--at least until a court decides it.


The engineer clearly can not claim any rights in the original composition or the performance that he processes. But  a recording encompasses two distinct rights. One is for the composition, and the second is for the phonorecord, which is the actual captured sound. If the engineer just turns on the tape recorder, it is difficult to see how he has produced anything that he can own the rights to, although arguably he has. If he does major mixing, selecting and discarding tracks it may in effect rise to the level of an arrangement gaining its own composition rights. If he uses all of the tracks as given but adds effects levels etc. it pretty clearly has the effect of being an original creation recorded in tangible form, and absent some other consideration it is his property under copyright. 


If you are engaging the services of someone who is going to give you back a phonorecord, it would be wise to insist on a contract stating that at least the copyright to the final product (phonorecord) you receive is your property. The most reliable way to do that is to be sure that the contract meets "work for hire" requirements, in which case the engineer truly is, "a contractor who has absolutely no right to any of the work produced." Otherwise is not inconceivable (although it is probably pretty unlikely) that the engineer could assert rights arising from his own work on the project. The law is no different for an informal garage based operation than from a major recording company. Those offering their services as engineers, should consider an explicit clause in their contracts transferring copyright in the final phonorecord to the client. I believe that is what you all intend to do, but you can not guarantee the actions of people who may inherit or obtain your rights in bankruptcy etc. with your own unwritten words or intentions.
2013/01/22 13:59:02
guitardood
Seeing as how this thread is marked solved, let me open another can of worms......

Say you hire Master Engineer to come to your studio and mix your tracks on your gear?  Does he then get to hit the delete key after the bounce?

I've had the opportunity to have a very well known engineer from the Chicago area come to my studio and work on my tracks in an engineering capacity.  Before he left, you can be sure that all tracks and work files were stored on three different drives, with his blessing.

What he was paid for was his expertise in setting up the knobs to create the best sound and not a simple two-track master.

Though again, this was worked out up front between us prior to sitting down and working.

--------------
guitardood

2013/01/22 14:44:07
guitardood
SteveGriffiths


guitardood


Don't know how anyone else feels but I thought mixing was considered a "work-for-hire" type of job and all work product in the completion of said job usually belongs to the customer unless otherwise arranged ahead of time.  As an example from the programming world: Customer asks for a program that calculates PI to 200 decimal places, they not only get the finished executable but all "documented" source-code related to the creation of said program, along with any developer notes, flowcharts and documentation.

Not sure of how legal eagles would view this, just my opinion.

On the software side it is common that source code is not provided to a customer for a custom application. However, that source is held in escrow to be made available to the customer if the software company goes away.


Cheers


Grif

Hey Grif,
   No offense, but I've been doing computer consulting & custom programming for over 25 years and I can tell you, from my experience, that there is no "common" practice and varies with the type of work requested and contracts involved and quite frankly, the intelligence of the client.


   Under work-for-hire, though, the client does indeed have a legal right to all source code and documentation upon delivery and acceptance of a project, especially in the case of making changes to their current source code base for either improvements or bug fixes.


   Also, let us not forget that lawyers' bogus arguments and judges ignorant to the law will most of the time make decisions that would turn us out on our ears.   I actually had a judge order me to maintain a client's internet and email connectivity service, despite the fact that they had not paid a dime for said service for over three months.  Go figure?


best,
guitardood
2013/01/22 15:03:49
Jeff Evans
As I have already said way back in post #37 the engineer owns the mix the client does not. I think we have worked that out by now! 

The situation above that guitardood is talking about is quite different. An engineer came in and gave him a tutorial hence left the session files alone which would be the right thing to do. 

Firstly I would never do a mix on someone else's setup, that is a major compromise in itself unless it was really a very good setup and even if I did I would not leave anything behind either. Source files were the only thing supplied to me and they would be the only thing I would leave behind. Simple as that. As well as the mix itself of course. I don't allow the client to be around when doing a mix as well. They are the worst people to have around! That would be the main reason for not doing a mix on a client's setup.
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