I'm glad I don't live in southern California any more. 

Maybe we should all take a step back here. IT's just words on the internet and I don't want to see anyone getting banned. How it turned into a road kill rant is beyond me.

spacey
Ok James. Since you demand such.
 
You want a logical explanation why I think your statement is "broke". Since you are so keen on logic and request that of another that doesn't agree with you then I suggest that you logically explain how a patriot is not using his brain because as you have it if they did they wouldn't be such.
 
One that chooses not to be a patriot has that right but to make claim that patriots aren't intelligent about being so is your statement, you support it with your logic.
 
As is, to me, the position you are in is no different than a person eating the ass of a dead possum and telling others how good it is and if one says they don't think so and not going to eat it then they must logically explain why. You eat it, you logically explain why it's so good to you because they don't care how much you think you're right and welcome you to eat all of it you want...while they leave you to logically explain why, should you care to follow your own demands.
 
You've insulted me numerous times because I don't agree with your statement. I know many very intelligent patriots. That's a very logical fact that makes your statement "broke" to me. Matter of fact my neighbor is a very successful intelligent business man that is without doubt a patriot and I know for a fact that you would get explained more than you can imagine. (if you drive down south to visit him...bring someone with you to drive you back...I should add, I think he really like Merle Haggard so "The Fighting Side Of Me" sure seems to give you an idea of the type of patriotism he'll explain)
The USA does not have a shortage of them. Should you care to believe differently just know that a great many patriots died on the battlefields to make sure you have the right to freedom of speech and there are plenty more highly intelligent patriots ready to continue supporting the USA.
 
I unfortunately happened on a you tube video of some old guy that eats road kill. He has it all worked out and really enjoys gathering his meals. He seems to be a very intelligent person and after all, he is alive so apparently it works just fine for him. I couldn't finish watching...
I have many logical reasons why I won't be eating road kill -and why I am a USA patriot- and I don't agree that I should be taking home road kill for my wife to fix for lunch nor do I or will I ever believe that patriots wouldn't be so if they used their brain pans. You....eat and think whatever floats your boat  As an American citizen I have right to let you know I don't agree with you and you've been told why.
 
I agree with James....you guys tell him what you think the pros and cons of the US are. I'm not wasting anymore time with this foolishness.

 
Why get so emotional? It would help to actually think about what I said first rather than go off on a rant based on something I didn't say. I didn't, for instance, say that I thought patriots were stupid, or incapable of intellect. I just said that patriotism is not an intellectual stance to take. For instance, if you were a patriotic expert on quantum physics, I would say that your patriotism was not intellectual while your knowledge of quantum physics was. It's not making an overall judgment on the person's character, it's simply separating aspects of it and judging them on their own merits. I'm sure I hold many views which are not entirely intellectual either. Likewise, it's perfectly acceptable to isolate different aspects of a country and judge them on their own merits. Freedom of speech - good. Throwing people in jail for marijuana possession - bad. I just don't see the intellectual merit of patriotism, which is more of a "my country is better than yours regardless of the facts" kind of deal. You can love (or respect or cherish or whatever) various aspects of your country without necessarily being a patriot. Likewise, I believe you can also physically defend your country without necessarily having to love all aspects of it. Especially if it's the place in which your family and friends live. 
 
People dying on the battlefield to defend your freedom of speech - noble. 
People dying on the battlefield in the name of some war which isn't defending anyone's freedom of speech and in fact was completely unnecessary and just got a bunch of people killed for nothing - not so noble. 
 
The US, along with many other countries, has fought both kinds of war. Patriotism is a kind of blind love of it all, right or wrong. I'm sorry but whatever merits there are in waving a flag, "intellectual" is not one of them. But that is not to say that everyone who waves a flag is incapable of intellect. 

An interesting thing happens when you live outside your home country for a long time, which is that you start to view your homeland through the eyes of the foreigners you've come to identify with. It's a distorted view.
 
The longest I've lived outside the U.S. was three years split between England and Germany. At the end of that time, I was apprehensive about going back "home". I had this image of America as being a dangerous and unfriendly place, with horrific crime, an oppressive government, a crumbling economy and deep philosophical divisions. Thank you, BBC. Thank you, Bayerischer Rundfunk, and thank you, Stars and Stripes for only reporting the most bizarre and depressing stories from America.
 
It took a few months to get comfortable in America again. I had to rediscover that it was in fact mostly populated by sane, peaceful, charitable folks who would give you the shirt off their backs. That the most unassuming redneck farmer might in reality be a thoughtful, well-read intellectual. That some really good music had been happening here in my absence. That drivers here are the most restrained in the world - the first thing that struck me on day one (hitting the turnpike in New Jersey) was everyone was going the same speed, and traffic was moving smoothly despite being quite heavy. 
 
Now, as for the hard-working reputation of Americans, meh. Yes, we are rivaled in workaholism  - and heart attacks - only by the Japanese. But my time spent in more relaxed atmospheres (especially the Philippines) has shown me a better way, a compromise between hard work and low-stress attitudes. 
 
I should also point out that New England and the West Coast are as different as any two countries might be. Sharke has not become an American, he has become a New Yorker. And that's about as different from, say, a Californian as a German is to an Italian.

CraigB:
I'm glad I don't live in southern California any more.
 
 
Thank you. One less car on the freeway.

I totally get what you're saying about your perception of the "old country" being tainted by your newly adopted country Bit. However in my case, I had started to become disillusioned with aspects of the UK many years before I left it. And I think there is a difference between the way each country's respective medias portray the other country. For example, you're totally right about the UK media's biased portrayal of the US. There is a snobby anti-Americanism prevalent in much of Europe, and I have to deal with it from my friends all the time, most of whom have never set foot in the US let alone lived here and seem to have built their entire opinion of it from movies, the BBC and Guardian editorials. 
 
As an example, a frequent opinion I hear expressed from friends is "I would never want to go to the US, I wouldn't feel safe, it's so violent." And then the very same people are jetting off to Brazil, with 4x the murder rate of the US, or Jamaica, with 10x the murder rate of US. They come back and they can't wait to tell everyone what a paradise it was and how they would move there given half the chance. Personally, despite the relatively high murder rate of the US compared to the UK, I feel safer walking around New York than I ever did in Newcastle, in which I saw far more violence. I was the victim of violence many times back home simply crossing paths with some random drunks in the street who were looking for a fight, and whereas I'm sure that goes on here too I just see it a lot less. I can count on one hand the number of street fights I've seen in NYC in almost 15 years (seriously), whereas I would see mindless violence on almost a daily basis in Newcastle. 
 
Now let's move onto the way Europe is portrayed by the US media - I have to say, it's almost on the point of being fetishized. There is this meme in the media that Europe is a better, more civilized place where everyone is well educated and healthy and happy. Especially when it comes to Scandinavia (which has one of the largest rates of antidepressant prescription in the developed world). The editorials I read about Scandinavia are bordering on ridiculous, and I have both a Norwegian and a Swedish friend (one here, one back in Newcastle) who find them funny. My Norwegian friend, when asked about how great Norway is by people who have read glistening write ups about it in the US media, just laughs and says "it is not so good. You live there, you find out for yourself." Beautiful place of course, but just not the social wonderland it's portrayed to be. 
 
And yes I'm speaking as a New Yorker, but the thing about that is New York is a melting pot - not just of nationalities but Americans too. I regularly meet, talk to and do business with people from all over the US - Arizona, Oklahoma, LA, Ohio, Kentucky, everywhere - so I've had personal experience with a wide range of Americans. While it's impossible to generalize too much, you do start to discern a common thread. That's not to say that certain things don't annoy me, of course they do. The weirdest things annoy me that are frankly so petty I won't even go into them 
 
 

sharke

jamesg1213
I'd be interested to hear more pros and cons of living in the US from the two ex-pats (Rain & Sharke) - apart from TV and wine.

For me the biggest thing is the general attitude of people. Now I'm not knocking any of the British friends and family I have back home, but I find that in general that people in the States are more motivated and ambitious, and more positive about crazy ideas that you have to make money. There is more of a "go for it!" attitude in the states than there is in the UK. Of course you're going to find exceptions in both countries, but I'm talking about in general. When I first came to the states I lived in Nantucket and was immediately impressed by how many people had built their own houses, deal with their own sewage, take their own trash to the dump etc. Back home I just never saw that level of independence as the general feeling is that the government should do all of those things for you. 
 
The US is just a far more colorful, interesting place than the UK overall. There is more variety, more individualism, more color, more culture, more positive people, more ambition, more opportunity. 
 
Let me just give you a little example of attitudes which sticks in my mind. I remember a year or so before I came to the states, waiting for a bus in Newcastle City Center. It was December, but a very sunny day, so I had shades on. There was a couple of young women standing nearby and one of them says to the other, "sunglasses in winter, who does he think he is, a film star?"
 
I'm not claiming the US is perfect or not without its own serious problems. But having lived a long time in both countries, I do feel qualified to make an overall comparison. 

 
Exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to read when I asked, thanks. A good friend of mine lived in the US for many years and has given me quite an insight into living there (California, Chicago and Northern Michigan mainly) so I was interested to hear another point of view.
 
It's been interesting living in Scotland for 14 years and looking at England from a (smaller) distance. Like I said before, I do miss The Cotswolds but I suspect that if I went back it wouldn't be how I remember it (even if I could afford to go back, which would require a lottery win).
 
Nonetheless, if anyone ever asks me, I never refer to myself as 'British', I will always be English, and a Glosterman at heart.
 
 

jamesg1213

sharke

jamesg1213
I'd be interested to hear more pros and cons of living in the US from the two ex-pats (Rain & Sharke) - apart from TV and wine.

For me the biggest thing is the general attitude of people. Now I'm not knocking any of the British friends and family I have back home, but I find that in general that people in the States are more motivated and ambitious, and more positive about crazy ideas that you have to make money. There is more of a "go for it!" attitude in the states than there is in the UK. Of course you're going to find exceptions in both countries, but I'm talking about in general. When I first came to the states I lived in Nantucket and was immediately impressed by how many people had built their own houses, deal with their own sewage, take their own trash to the dump etc. Back home I just never saw that level of independence as the general feeling is that the government should do all of those things for you. 
 
The US is just a far more colorful, interesting place than the UK overall. There is more variety, more individualism, more color, more culture, more positive people, more ambition, more opportunity. 
 
Let me just give you a little example of attitudes which sticks in my mind. I remember a year or so before I came to the states, waiting for a bus in Newcastle City Center. It was December, but a very sunny day, so I had shades on. There was a couple of young women standing nearby and one of them says to the other, "sunglasses in winter, who does he think he is, a film star?"
 
I'm not claiming the US is perfect or not without its own serious problems. But having lived a long time in both countries, I do feel qualified to make an overall comparison. 

 
Exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to read when I asked, thanks. A good friend of mine lived in the US for many years and has given me quite an insight into living there (California, Chicago and Northern Michigan mainly) so I was interested to hear another point of view.
 
It's been interesting living in Scotland for 14 years and looking at England from a (smaller) distance. Like I said before, I do miss The Cotswolds but I suspect that if I went back it wouldn't be how I remember it (even if I could afford to go back, which would require a lottery win).
 
Nonetheless, if anyone ever asks me, I never refer to myself as 'British', I will always be English, and a Glosterman at heart.
 

 
Scotland has this romance about it though, yes? I have family on Skye and as a kid we used to drive up there every year from Newcastle, through the Highlands, and it's so spectacularly beautiful that I was deeply moved, even as a 10 year old. And I used to visit Edinburgh quite a bit in my early 20's, again a very beautiful city that just has an amazing vibe about it. However I remember visiting Edinburgh again in my late 20's and feeling a little "meh" like I just didn't feel it any more. I did also experience a bit of anti-English snobbery from some Scots - not too much, but enough to make me think that if I moved there (and I did think about moving to Edinburgh for a while, to take up a voluntary position with the Scottish Wildlife Trust - didn't happen though) that it might grate after a while. 

sharke
 
 
Why get so emotional? It would help to actually think about what I said first rather than go off on a rant based on something I didn't say. I didn't, for instance, say that I thought patriots were stupid, or incapable of intellect. I just said that patriotism is not an intellectual stance to take.  

Only one thing was emotional....that you were insulting me.
 
Patriotism is an intellectual stance. Many patriots know a great deal about their government and the officials within and don't show up at voting booths following their hearts. (as I've read here )
They know how to go about making changes within the system or how to strive for improvement.
 
Maybe you and Ampfixer are right and I'm wrong. Many do think that majority of voters know nothing more than voting straight for a party or go with whomever seems to feel right at the moment. Blindly doing their patriotic duty with not a thought one while leading others to think as you.
 
So.....I write to you and I'm off on a rant based on something you didn't say...I will not be ranting another word to you and yes I'm emotionally moved...I'm glad you're not my neighbor.

spacey

sharke
 
 
Why get so emotional? It would help to actually think about what I said first rather than go off on a rant based on something I didn't say. I didn't, for instance, say that I thought patriots were stupid, or incapable of intellect. I just said that patriotism is not an intellectual stance to take.  

Only one thing was emotional....that you were insulting me.
 
Patriotism is an intellectual stance. Many patriots know a great deal about their government and the officials within and don't show up at voting booths following their hearts. (as I've read here )
They know how to go about making changes within the system or how to strive for improvement.
 
Maybe you and Ampfixer are right and I'm wrong. Many do think that majority of voters know nothing more than voting straight for a party or go with whomever seems to feel right at the moment. Blindly doing their patriotic duty with not a thought one while leading others to think as you.
 
So.....I write to you and I'm off on a rant based on something you didn't say...I will not be ranting another word to you and yes I'm emotionally moved...I'm glad you're not my neighbor.

The fact that you're emotionally moved about it confirms to me that it's not an intellectual stance. I'm not saying that all non-intellectual stances are a bad thing, and again let me repeat that I have my share of non-intellectual feelings and emotions, it's just not intellectual, period. Yes many patriots know a great deal about government. But that's an aspect of their intellect, not their patriotism. A lot of non-patriotic people know a great deal about government too.