dmbaer


Danny,
 
I tried to duplicate your issue but faced a set of challenges.  I reinstalled ARC 1 (latest version freshly downloaded) making sure I installed both 32 and 64-bit versions.  I got two dll-s placed in the expected locations.  The install seemed to do what I instructed.
 
At first, when I ran Sonar, ARC showed up in the menus as "ARC (32 bit)".  Indeed, when I inserted it into the master effects bin, my task manager showed a new application (Arc) that started up.  It almost certainly it was getting the 32-bit version being executed.  But all my other IK 64-bit plug-ins showed up correctly.
 
So I tried to re-order the VST scan folder list so that the 64-bit VST folders came first.  It appears that cannot be done.  Next attempt was to rename ARC.dll under Program Files (x86) to be ARC-32bit.dll.  Now, after a VST reset, VST rescan and machine reboot (that appeared to be required to get this all to work), I finally am seeing ARC without the "(32 bit)" qualifier in the Sonar menus.  Also, the task manager does not show a separate application when I insert in into a project.  Finally!!!
 
So, at last I have something that should duplicate your setup.  And Sonar does not crash when I open a project with ARC 1 in it.  Thank goodness for small favors.
 
But this makes me question the judgement of the CW developers.  If you're running 64-bit Sonar, would it not make sense to scan 64-bit VSTs first?  Or, why not allow the user to specify the order of the directories in the scan list?  As is, it seems one cannot have both a 32 and 64 bit version of the same VST installed, or you're always going to get the 32-bit version recognized.  There may be a very good reason you'd like both on hand, but you'd rarely want the 32-bit version used when running it in Sonar.
 
Very puzzling.

Hi David,
 
Thanks for the reply...and Merry Christmas by the way. :) A few things might have confused you in my last post, so I'd like to clarify a bit. I have two ARC issues.  You won't be able to duplicate my issue unless you run the versions I speak of with the correct versions of Sonar.
 
Issue 1: ARC 1 not keeping corrections relies on any version after 1.1.1 to present using any version of Sonar per my post above. Version 1.1.1 works perfectly in all versions of Sonar until X2.
 
Issue 2: Crashing only occurs in Sonar X2 or X2a with ARC 1, version 1.1.1.
 
As for the VST thing you mention, you should never see ARC exe running in task manager. Somehow, the ARC exe for the correction procedure was included in your VST scan is what I believe happened there.
 
As for the other VST issue between 32 and 64, this happens when we include our 32 bit plugs in our 64 bit scan due to some of our plugs being needed in bridge mode. So if you have 32 bit plugs of the same product that are being scanned along with your plugs in the 32 bit folders that may NOT be 64, Sonar is going to wonder what the deal is as it will see both dll's.
 
The fix for this is to not include any 32 bit plugs that you have 64's for, in your 64 bit plug scan. This way Sonar will always open 64's when you run it. How it knows to differentiate between stock Sonar plugs and 64 Sonar plugs is a bit mind boggling, however, I have seen a few 32 bit Sonar plugs in a 64 project. This usually happens to me when the project I brought into Sonar 64, was created using Sonar 32. It's hit or miss though really. Most times the 64's all load up, but I so see 32's showing up from time to time.
 
I want to totally go 64 bit, but some of my 32 bit plugs haven't been revised to 64 bit...and as I said before, I have a few Dx plugs that I still use. So for me, I'll always need some of my 32 bit plugs to be bridged. What I have started to do though (which has helped leaps and bounds) is to remove all 32 bit plugs that have 64 bit versions from my VST scan folders in Sonar 64. This way if 32's show up, they will be there because they are supposed to be bridged....not by accident.
 
One thing I've always done is keep all my VST plugs in one folder for 32, one for 64. When you install dual versions 32/64 of the same plug and include the 32's in your 64 plug scan, you're bound to see issues. So anything that I have in 32 bit that is also 64, I remove out of my 32 bit folder and into another so it is not included in the 64 bit plug scan yet all my other 32's that are not 64 that can be bridged, will still appear.
 
Hope this clarifies a few things. :)
 
-Danny

Danny Danzi

Issue 2: Crashing only occurs in Sonar X2 or X2a with ARC 1, version 1.1.1. 

OK, now I understand.  Somewhat of a relief, actually.   I'm not sure I need ARC 2.

 
As for the VST thing you mention, you should never see ARC exe running in task manager. Somehow, the ARC exe for the correction procedure was included in your VST scan is what I believe happened there.
 

I don't believe that's correct.  You should see any 32-bit VST as a separate application because it's a different process in a separate address space.  Sonar can run 64-bit VSTs in its own address space, but it must run 32-bit VSTs (via bridging) in a separate one.
 

As for the other VST issue between 32 and 64, this happens when we include our 32 bit plugs in our 64 bit scan due to some of our plugs being needed in bridge mode. So if you have 32 bit plugs of the same product that are being scanned along with your plugs in the 32 bit folders that may NOT be 64, Sonar is going to wonder what the deal is as it will see both dll's.
 

ARC is the only VST for which I thought it might be useful to have both versions on hand.  Normally I never install 32-bit VSTs to begin with assuming one has the choice in the installer.

 
 
One thing I've always done is keep all my VST plugs in one folder for 32, one for 64. When you install dual versions 32/64 of the same plug and include the 32's in your 64 plug scan, you're bound to see issues. So anything that I have in 32 bit that is also 64, I remove out of my 32 bit folder and into another so it is not included in the 64 bit plug scan yet all my other 32's that are not 64 that can be bridged, will still appear. 
 

Great idea.  I now have four directories in the scan: CW 64-bit and 32-bit and "other" 64-bit and 32-bit.  I think I'll try a fifth for 32-bit duplicates and not include it in the Sonar scan.  That should keep things well behaved.

Ok, I admit that I haven't read all the posts in this thread. Life is short. But!!!! I have a little room I mix in and it sounded DREADFUL! Mixes I made sounded simply 'wrong' elsewhere. So I looked at bits of sponge, wood, egg boxes and bass traps and all that stuff and came to the conclusion that the space needed EQ'ing and balancing somehow. I considered ARC but thought that it was a bit expensive and confusing, compared to the KRK ERGO hardware/software solution from KRK. With trepidation, I bought the unit for £399 from Thoman . It comes with its own calibration mic and software on a dongle. Cool for a few years ago! It took a few mins to install and run the calibration software which is very simple and straightforward. It makes lots of white and pink noises and encourages you to place the mic all over the room. You stop when you feel you have done enough. The results were immediate and impressive. No booming buzzes from the windows. No muddled mids and for the very first time I had justifiable confidence in what I heard. The mic is nice and good for acoustic guitar too. But there is more... The Base unit accepts analogue and digital inputs (auto switching) and functions as a pretty good Firewire audio interface. I simply feed the rca digital spdif out from my quad capture into it and it sounds great. But there's more. It has a an A/B or A/Sub button on it to select the outputs. There is also a Focus /Global button that allows you to switch from the focused mixing position setting to the wide room playback setting so that you can hone the sound to the setting required. Sounds like a sales pitch but, I set my unit up a year and a half ago and I have not touched it since. However... When I hit 'bypass', the windows buzz. So its still doing the business. Take a look http://www.krksys.com/krk-ergo.html

Creynolds, I considered that option, but decided on the ARC2 system. Similar, the mic can be used for acoustic guitar or other applications. It was really simple to set up, didn't have to re-wire anything. requires at least 7 measurments (i think), but you could do many many more if desired. Can save unlimited numbers of room measurements, plus has simulators for other audio devices (boom bx, car stereo etc). all for $300. Sounds like the KRK option works well also. Have already noticed much more accurate mixes. Unfortunatley for me, I am still learning how to engineer/mix. My advise to anyone is to seriously consider room correction if you are a hobbyist, probably one of the most practical $300 purchases you can make.

Good info for all to hear.

Tracey,
I'm NOT the expert here, I think MOST of the ARC users have relied heavily on Danny's input.
That being said, TAKE YOUR TIME, and "measure" your room VERY carefully.

Danny,
I can verify that ARC 1.3.1 works FINE in X2a on my x32 and x64 systems.
It is always "ON" when I launch a project. No crashes!
If it were me I would:
1. Image my system
2. Copy my ARC correction files to a safe place (C:\Users\your name\Documents\IK Multimedia\ARC System\Filters) they are name.arc probably wouldn't hurt to backup the .arc2 files as well.
3. uninstall ARC 1.1.1
4. install ARC 1.3.1
5. Copy your back up .arc files in the "Filters" folder.
6. Launch and test.

I'm seeing "issues" with some of the IK plugs, I "think" any that are not x64 capable are problematic in X2. SVX and the CSR reverbs so far. IIRC ARC 1.1.1 is not x64, right?
Haven't tried any of the VSTi's yet...

Dave,
I'm guessing, but have no way to prove this, that ARC (more correctly Audessy) does some phase manipulation as well as EQ.
Its the only thing that makes sense for correcting a "null".
Don't you think?

T

DeeringAmps


Danny,
I can verify that ARC 1.3.1 works FINE in X2a on my x32 and x64 systems.
It is always "ON" when I launch a project. No crashes!
If it were me I would:
1. Image my system
2. Copy my ARC correction files to a safe place (C:\Users\your name\Documents\IK Multimedia\ARC System\Filters) they are name.arc probably wouldn't hurt to backup the .arc2 files as well.
3. uninstall ARC 1.1.1
4. install ARC 1.3.1
5. Copy your back up .arc files in the "Filters" folder.
6. Launch and test.

I'm seeing "issues" with some of the IK plugs, I "think" any that are not x64 capable are problematic in X2. SVX and the CSR reverbs so far. IIRC ARC 1.1.1 is not x64, right?
Haven't tried any of the VSTi's yet...

T

Hi Tom, thanks for the reply. I think I need to just make a video of what I'm seeing because I can't seem to explain it right. LOL! I've tested every version of ARC that is available...here's what I've come up with.
 
ARC 1 Versions 1.0 to 1.1.1: These all work perfectly in all versions of Sonar and every DAW I own except for X2. I get a crash as soon as I press play and stop playback. If it doesn't crash there, if I double click on something or even a midi track to get into piano roll, that whie faded screen comes up. I actually got a .dmp out of it today finally. Also of note, these versions hold the correction in place at all times and work perfectly.
 
Versions 1.2 to 1.3.1: All these work in all versions of Sonar including X2a. However, the snag here is though they are all enabled and the correction is loaded, FOR ME it is not playing my actual correction. To make it work right I have to double click the instance of ARC on my bus, and you can literally see the graph move to where it then plays the correction. Most people will not notice this unless you really pay attention IF it happens on your end. I do not know if this is something everyone is experiencing, but it's VERY apparent on my end. Like...it's trying to play some sort of correction, but it's not mine. I know in an instant that THAT is not the project I mixed. LOL!
 
What sucks about this is, if I forget to double click ARC to open it in my bus, I start messing with things thinking they need to be fixed within the project. Then it hits me....ARC isn't playing nicely, so as soon as I double click it, the correction automatically loads and then I'm fine for the duration of that project. The next time I open it though, I'll need to open every instance that is being used so it loads the correction. I don't even have to do anything other than open the plug. My correction is loaded, the plug is enabled and all looks well. It just doesn't SOUND right.
 
ARC 2: Works perfectly in all versions of Sonar and all my DAW's. However, I just can't seem to get used to it. The bottom end is a little too tight for me and it's made me mix bass heavy because of it. The top end is a bit more sizzly too compared to ARC 1 and just sounds un-natural to me. I've done 2 pin-point accurate corrections with it and they both sound identical. I tried messing with the eq provided to take out a little 16k sizzle, but I'm still just not liking it as much as ARC 1. This also forced me to tame the highs in my guitars which in turn, sounded a little muddy and could have used a little more high end presence. So it's definitely not to my liking unfortunately. It has nothing to do with getting used to it or anything. ARC 1 just gives me a sound that I know is right without getting to know it or second guessing it.
 
When I listen to good stuff I know sounds good using ARC 2 and it lacks low end and has a bit too much sizzle in the high end, that tells me right there it's just not right for me. I don't use 16k in my stuff to the extent that ARC 2 is throwing at me. And, I know for a fact I have nice low end in my stuff as well as commecial stuff I reference....and ARC 2 just seems a little bass light to me. So when you keep that in mind, it would be another guessing game for me with this version which is why I got the first version...to eliminate guessing at all costs. :) Shame too...it's a nice plug and does sound close to ARC 1...but it's different enough to where it's really messing up my judgement and I have too much traffic coming through here to make any mistakes. :)
 
Thanks again for your reply. I hope some of this makes a bit more sense now.
 
-Danny

dmbaer

I don't believe that's correct.  You should see any 32-bit VST as a separate application because it's a different process in a separate address space.  Sonar can run 64-bit VSTs in its own address space, but it must run 32-bit VSTs (via bridging) in a separate one.
 

David, I've never seen anything come through as an exe that was supposed to be a plugin. I see bitbridge server come up in task manager, but never any specific plugin.exe's. You had mentioned in your post something about ARC.exe....that is the standalone that is installed for your corrections. It shouldn't be seen in task manager unless you have the correction procedure exe running. My system may be handling things differently than yours, but I've never seen a plugin come in as an exe on my end for anything when using Sonar 64....so that's why I mentioned that. :)
 
-Danny

Danny,
I understand exactly the issue you are experiencing.
I know we've discussed this in the past.
If I remember correctly one of the upgrade versions was causing a crash (or just not finishing?) every time you ran the measurement program.
Have you tried a "clean" 1.3.1 install?
When running 1.3.1 did you use a previous .arc file, or create a new one (I'm pretty sure you used a "new" one, but...).
Again, I'm not having any issues on my office system, Win 7x32, or the StudioCat, Win 7 x64.
On the "Cat" I'm running Sonar X1d Expanded and X2a, x32 and x64.
I know its time consuming but if/when X2 is "ready", you'll need ARC 1 running right.
ARC 2 is definitely brighter, I really haven't done any serious work since installing it.
It sounds "nice", but maybe nice isn't what we need, Audussey is a Home Theatre product.

T

Danny Danzi

 

David, I've never seen anything come through as an exe that was supposed to be a plugin. I see bitbridge server come up in task manager, but never any specific plugin.exe's. You had mentioned in your post something about ARC.exe....that is the standalone that is installed for your corrections. It shouldn't be seen in task manager unless you have the correction procedure exe running. My system may be handling things differently than yours, but I've never seen a plugin come in as an exe on my end for anything when using Sonar 64....so that's why I mentioned that. :)
 
-Danny

Funny.  I never paid much attention to this before, but I wanted to confirm which version of ARC was running, so I looked at the task manager, which definitely labeled the application as "Arc" (and not "Bitbridge for sure) when all Sonar saw was the 32-bit version.  Now I can't repeat the test because I got the 32/64-bit ARC issue sorted out (and nothing else now shows up in the task manager when I add ARC to a project).  By the way, I never ran ARC.exe in any of this.  My invocation of ARC was strictly as a plug-in insert into an effects bin.

DeeringAmps


Danny,
I understand exactly the issue you are experiencing.
I know we've discussed this in the past.
If I remember correctly one of the upgrade versions was causing a crash (or just not finishing?) every time you ran the measurement program.
Have you tried a "clean" 1.3.1 install?
When running 1.3.1 did you use a previous .arc file, or create a new one (I'm pretty sure you used a "new" one, but...).
Again, I'm not having any issues on my office system, Win 7x32, or the StudioCat, Win 7 x64.
On the "Cat" I'm running Sonar X1d Expanded and X2a, x32 and x64.
I know its time consuming but if/when X2 is "ready", you'll need ARC 1 running right.
ARC 2 is definitely brighter, I really haven't done any serious work since installing it.
It sounds "nice", but maybe nice isn't what we need, Audussey is a Home Theatre product.

T

What a memory, Mr. Deering! :) That was quite impressive you remembered the correction crash! I didn't include that in my notes on this because it would have made for a longer novel and would have probably cornfused a few more people. LOL!
 
Yeah I've tried everything that you mentioned including some of my own train-wreck ideas. I've even totally removed every IK registry item I could find after un-installing. Same issues for me whether I use Win XP or Win 7. This crash is really weird though in X2. Everything fires up, works like a champ and sounds perfect until I stop playback or double click something. What's even weirder is, when audio is playing, I can do anything I want. Double click to my hearts content! As soon as I stop playback though, that's when it crashes religiously.
 
I read somewhere that X2 has a completely new plugin manager. I spoke with someone at Cakewalk today about this ARC issue and that was mentioned. Me and the tech I spoke with have no proof of this of course, but it could be a possibility due to things working perfectly in X1.
 
On my "not keeping the correction" thing Tom....I think I have a good idea as to what that is. I believe it's due to using older correction files in that newer build. I've never been able to finish a correction procedure without the ARC exe crashing on me when using the newer builds. So I've stuck with my older ones. I believe I did happen to get through one correction with 1.3.0 but I left my mic hot or something and it didn't sound right so I deleted them...and the next time I tried the correction procedure, illegal operation to where I would have had to do the whole correction procedure again.
 
As a matter of fact, my new studio had that problem. We installed 1.3.1 and ran the correction. I had not seen that version yet and figured they may have fixed the issues with the other. Sure enough, after over an hour of corrections, it crashed right before the final save of all the corrections. So we just went back to 1.1.1 and it's been on those systems ever since.
 
As for ARC 2, yeah....I just can't trust it man. I want to....but I just hate the whole "guessing" and "compensation" thing. Have you tried it and ARC 1 side by side? Try it again if you get a minute. As you said, you too notice the additional high end in ARC 2, right? Try the HF roll-off on ARC 2 and compare it to ARC 1. It's STILL harsh and seems not to change too much considering what the graph is showing us it actually rolled off. I thought for sure that would have made a drastic difference...but, it's still not good to my ears.
 
The closest I can come to my ARC 1 correction is by using the manual eq in ARC 2 while grouping 3 nodes together to eliminate this harsh high end I'm hearing. Even there, it STILL is more harsh and high-endy than ARC 1. It just makes my guitars and cymbals sound too razor sharp to where if I curb them, I know the sound is going to be dull...which it has when I've tried working with ARC 2. At first I thought it may have been a bad correction or something, so I redid it. I taped my floor and measured everything out like I always do to the numbers and checked that the mic wasn't bleeding back into the system. It just doesn't give me results I can trust. So...my choices are to use ARC 1 version 1.3.1 and force myself to remember to open every instance once per project, or go back to 1.1.1 and not use Sonar X2. Uggh...what a decision to have to make I tell ya. :(
 
-Danny