John

CJaysMusic


As said before and before, Sonar is geared more for recording and mixing. Sonar will never be a full fledged notation program as Sibelius.

It seems like you have beeen waiting for this for 6 or 7 years or so. If i was you, i would stop waiting. It isnt going to happen.
If you look at the track record beginning at the first version of cakewalk, you'll see that natation has stayed the same, for the most part. They never claimed to be a notation software and by looking at the big picture through the 15 years, they never will and that is just fine with me.

You may want to pay allot more for sonar upgrades, if notation was better, but i wouldn't.

CJ that is not what the OP is saying. He is not asking for Sibelius he is asking CW to bring Sonar up to the same ability as Logic and Cubase. Sibelius was mentioned as a collaboration only.  

And yes we have asked for this year after year. It seems to me you would have gotten the idea by now.

To say that Sonar is geared toward recording and mixing is completely wrong. It is also geared toward composition just as much. Notation is also a part of Sonar and it needs to be upgraded. That concept can't be that hard to get a grasp on. It never fails. Someone wants CW to improve the Staff view and someone pipes in denouncing it often by making a specious argument like the one above. 

it may not be an important part to some but it is to others. It wont hurt so please try to find a way to support it. BTW CW has said it is on the agenda. We just don't know when.

Perhaps on Cakewalk's next user survey, they should determine whether the majority of users actually want staff view improvements ?
That would be a clear mandate to get it done, or not.
(I kind of recollect the last survey mentioned staff view improvements, but can't remember for sure ?)
 
I think that to be considered as a "composition" favourable software, the staff view should be improved for a more efficient input of midi data. They don't need to re-invent staff view, or make it have professional notation capabilities, just add some note/chord macro input functions, better drag/drop editing, and make lyric input more straightforward for songwriters.
 
Easy to say . . . harder to program.
I for one would be very interested to know how many Sonar users actually use Staff View frequently, as I do.

Combo


There are two sides to this – two types of notation user -  and the fact gets constantly overlooked - it has been again above despite many threads on this.

Many of those of us who are heavy notation users want notation in Sonar as the excellent tool for inputting MIDI information that it was at one point shaping up to be (it started going backwards in workflow terms with X1).  That’s really all we ask for, though if we could get an efficient means of interfacing with score-production software it would be great.   

There are, however, those who seem to think that it should go further and be capable of producing printable scores and parts like Sibelius/Finale or whatever.   This, to me (and I know to others),  is unrealistic.  (I should add I worked as a copyist and arranger since the days when it was done by pen so I know what's required).  

However, the designers seem to have tried to take this lobbying on board and have ended up trying to satisfy these demands by giving prominence to stuff like expression marks, chord diagrams and even lyrics –all meaningless clutter on the screen if you just want to input music - at the expense of quick and efficient inputting of complex notation.   I think they have realised that providing the capability of the sheet music apps is a losing battle, which is OK by me but it also seems they are shying away from improving the inputting side of notation – a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.   

To make it worse, any thread on notation gets the two conflicting points of view confused, and the arguments start, with those who never even use notation chipping in to say demands for improvements  are unreasonable – that  ‘it ain’t gonna happen’  - because they don’t understand the distinction.

Eloquently put.  Thank you, Combo.
 
I'm with you on this.  If I want to print finished sheet music then I use Finale.  This is not what the majority of users want in Sonar, just a useable tool for composition.
 
As for the people requesting full scoring capabilities - they are in cloud cuckoo land.
 
And as for the non notation users who chime in that they don't read music, so don't want resources wasted on developing it - they are ignorant.  I don't use the matrix, amongst other things,  but I'm happy it's there for users who do.  I also have an open mind to the possibility that I may learn to use it one day.
 
I have come across this divide between musicians who can read and those who can't all my life.  I've never understood the anger involved.  I tell my students that I will teach them to read if they want, but if they don't want to, that's fine.
 
Why do people get so wound up over this topic?

Avid  purchased Sibelius company and incorparated their expertise in Pro tools...

Steinberg recently hired the remnants of London based Sibelius team... 

Funny how some companies see the value of a useable SV..
 
Cakewalk have hired Ben Staton whose sonar plus +  added music note icons back to Sonar X1 - but for some bizarre reason have note incorparated into X2...                 

But hey, Sonar X2 is pretty to look at ...

Well I'm not so sure about what is possible. Nether Cubase or Logic place limits on what users can do with notation within those DAWs. Digital Performer also has quality notation. As for printing out a score that should be a very simple thing to do in a DAW that has notation. Why any of us are willing to settle for the worst notation in the industry even with some improvements makes me wonder. Both Cubase and Logic can print out a score with the same quality as Finale.


If they can do it why not Sonar?      

1+ for Melodic Jimmy and Rio Jazz's posts.

I suppose now I've gone to Win 8 I'll have to upgrade my version of Cubase 5 next time I need to score something. If Steinberg are hiring ex Sibelius employees that might help sweeten the pill

joakes


FWIW Notion 4 is now 64bits and so can be rewired into Sonar.

Clt,
Jerry

Did you try, this?

I talked to Notion people a couple of months ago and they could not do that, but took notes for future.

"This is Brian from NOTION Music Technical Support. Thanks for the email. Here
are the answers to your questions:

1. NOTION3 will run as a host or a slave. Most DAW's only run as a host though.
NOTION3 does not transmit MIDI data via ReWire but you can import a MIDI file
into the program or use MIDI out to send MIDI data via the IAC Driver or MIDI
Yoke depending on your operating system.

2. NOTION3 is not a native 64 bit application and is not compatible with 64 bit
ReWire. It will, however, run on a 64 bit operating system though.

Thanks again for the email and please let me know if I can be of any further
assistance."

If they fixed midi rewire that's swell.

Anyway, I never got rewire of midi tracks to work in Sonar 8.5 at least.
So I looked among feature stuff of X2, and still nothing mentioned that this is fixed.

If you can rewire host or notation software(either way) and just selected the midi tracks you want to use - that's a really good solution.

noynekker

I for one would be very interested to know how many Sonar users actually use Staff View frequently, as I do. 

Probably a minority, but perhaps more people would use it if they realised how useful it can be.  I almost always use PRV for editing, but often find SV to be better for viewing.  For example, when viewing several midi tracks together where there are a lot of unison notes or overlapping phrases, PRV can look cluttered and confusing, whereas SV displays the different instruments on separate staves, which gives a different perspective.  I often have SV and PRV open together side by side on different screens.  But I wish that each stave could somehow display the corresponding track colour.

lfm

joakes


FWIW Notion 4 is now 64bits and so can be rewired into Sonar.

Clt,
Jerry

Did you try, this?

I talked to Notion people a couple of months ago and they could not do that, but took notes for future.

"This is Brian from NOTION Music Technical Support. Thanks for the email. Here
are the answers to your questions:

1. NOTION3 will run as a host or a slave. Most DAW's only run as a host though.
NOTION3 does not transmit MIDI data via ReWire but you can import a MIDI file
into the program or use MIDI out to send MIDI data via the IAC Driver or MIDI
Yoke depending on your operating system.

2. NOTION3 is not a native 64 bit application and is not compatible with 64 bit
ReWire. It will, however, run on a 64 bit operating system though.

Thanks again for the email and please let me know if I can be of any further
assistance."

If they fixed midi rewire that's swell.

Anyway, I never got rewire of midi tracks to work in Sonar 8.5 at least.
So I looked among feature stuff of X2, and still nothing mentioned that this is fixed.

If you can rewire host or notation software(either way) and just selected the midi tracks you want to use - that's a really good solution.

Er, i did say Notion 4 (which is now 64 bits). That version you can rewire.


Cheers,
Jerry

I have come across this divide between musicians who can read and those who can't all my life.  I've never understood the anger involved.  I tell my students that I will teach them to read if they want, but if they don't want to, that's fine.   Why do people get so wound up over this topic?

IMHO notation is simply a lexicon that allows for efficient communication among performing musicians. In my experience readers get upset with non-readers because of the inefficiency in the resulting communication with them. Non-readers get upset with readers because of the inefficiency of the lexicon in communicating creativity. 

Question for the notation buffs out there: would improved Notation be in your top 3 Sonar updates wishlist? I really want improved notation too, but it wouldn't fall into my top 3 at this point. Top 5? Maybe. Top 10 definitely. I wonder if Cakewalk finds themselves prioritizing the same way...

That's why I almost think they'd be better off licensing Notion and finding a way to replace the staff view with a Notion light that's built right into Sonar. You know this is the direction Stienberg is going in having bought out Sibeleus.