more fuel for the fire<G>...

I use standard notation as a composition tool. I use Finale, but it could be Sibelius or even Notion. I don't expect to get a great MIDI performance out of it, I do expect to think in terms of harmony and counterpoint, things I have a difficult time doing in the PRV - probably cause I'm an old fart.

Once I have the basic composition and arrangement completed I export the MIDI file, or lately MusicXML file, and import them into Sonar. It usually sounds dreadful, but that's to be expected, music notation does not present an actual performance, just an idea for a performance.

At this point I have a choice - I can either tweak the data in the PRV or I can play the parts in from the keyboard. Every project has different requirements, so it's a coin toss - and sometimes I make the wrong guess<G>!

I stay in Sonar from here on out, except for audio editing, and that works for me.

If I need live players for a recording I will return to Finale to create the parts. Sometimes I just need to do some minor edits, sometimes it's a mess. This is where it would be nice if we had a rules based interface between standard notation and MIDI, but we don't.

For really simple sketches I sometimes use Sonar's Score View, but there are an awful lot of quirks. If they just made it work more like PRV - in terms of tools and work flow - that might solve the problem for some.

It is probably possible to do all of this in the PRV, and then export to Finale if a printed score is required. I lack the chops to do that.

CJaysMusic


As said before and before, Sonar is geared more for recording and mixing. Sonar will never be a full fledged notation program as Sibelius.

It seems like you have beeen waiting for this for 6 or 7 years or so. If i was you, i would stop waiting. It isnt going to happen.
If you look at the track record beginning at the first version of cakewalk, you'll see that natation has stayed the same, for the most part. They never claimed to be a notation software and by looking at the big picture through the 15 years, they never will and that is just fine with me.

You may want to pay allot more for sonar upgrades, if notation was better, but i wouldn't.

+1 If you want notation buy it as a plug-in/separate software. Sort of like iZotope RX or Ozone.
Let Cakewalk concentrate on stable recording software and purchase you extras elsewhere.
I honestly feel that Cakewalk should do away with Notation, Matrix and Beatscape all together.
Lighten up the code a little and stabilize the core program.

And for the record, I do know how to read music. I just have no need for it in my recording program. Mike

joakes

lfm

joakes


FWIW Notion 4 is now 64bits and so can be rewired into Sonar.

Clt,
Jerry

Did you try, this?

I talked to Notion people a couple of months ago and they could not do that, but took notes for future.

"This is Brian from NOTION Music Technical Support. Thanks for the email. Here
are the answers to your questions:

1. NOTION3 will run as a host or a slave. Most DAW's only run as a host though.
NOTION3 does not transmit MIDI data via ReWire but you can import a MIDI file
into the program or use MIDI out to send MIDI data via the IAC Driver or MIDI
Yoke depending on your operating system.

2. NOTION3 is not a native 64 bit application and is not compatible with 64 bit
ReWire. It will, however, run on a 64 bit operating system though.

Thanks again for the email and please let me know if I can be of any further
assistance."

If they fixed midi rewire that's swell.

Anyway, I never got rewire of midi tracks to work in Sonar 8.5 at least.
So I looked among feature stuff of X2, and still nothing mentioned that this is fixed.

If you can rewire host or notation software(either way) and just selected the midi tracks you want to use - that's a really good solution.

Er, i did say Notion 4 (which is now 64 bits). That version you can rewire.


Cheers,
Jerry

Yes, I know you said "4".
But did you try it?

Does it say that midi rewire was in place in Notion 4?
They did not for x86 before, even doing rewire then and even bragging about how good it was.

Unless the link into Sonar with rewire of midi - there is no use for it!
(or the other way round).

I think rewire of midi would have been mentioned for X1 or X2, if it really was in place.
That would be more useful that Music.xml. If you use midi export/import through midi files or xml is the same thing to me.

I can do rewire of midi in Reaper either way I want.
How about Sonar X2?


And about how to use notation.
I'm thinking only of registering songs - and an easy way to get needed paperwork done for doing that.
And at occasions hiring a vocalist to prepare before arriving. Some chords an melody with lyrics is often helpful doing that. Sonar staff view was good enough I think. I'm not doing full orchestral work.

MelodicJimmy


Dear Cakewalk, I HATE Apple. With a passion. I don't like Macs. I think they're overrated. I love Sonar. I really do. But, I'm sorry, Macs have one thing going for them: Logic Pro 9. And, what's so great about Logic Pro 9? What sets it apart from Sonar? AMAZING NOTATION. So, what is it with you people? It's almost 2013. Why can't you just either develop a great notation interface within Sonar OR get together with a notation company, such as Sibelius and let THEM do the notation part. I'd GLADLY pay more for Sonar upgrades if it had a fantastic notation system. When I say "fantastic notation system," I mean completely the opposite of what you guys have now. I mean, it really, completely SUCKS. It's terrible. It's a nightmare to use. I've made this post before, I know. I'm also not sorry. Your notation REALLY sucks. As a customer, I'd like to see this fixed.

YES   TOTALLY AGREE!
 
 
The funny thing is I watch my children go thru school and attend many music concerts.  I see hundreds upon hundreds of kids who learn to read music at some level at all different grades.   There must be a way to tap into this market.  I hear people say well Sonar is a recording and mixing application....well it is a sequencing application 1st and what better way to introduce this music recording application then thru composition and music notation/seqencing. Here is a big market of young consumers who have already have some basic training related to your product.  You just need to make the notation work at a usable level.  It does not need to be "Sibelius/Finale" alternatives.
 
I've said this before....How we record/sequence music will change with technology.  The "DAW" could most likely be history in 10 years.  Just as multitrack tape machines and ADATS and Cassettes and CDs.   But what will be the link between new technology and music??   
 
NOTATION!!!          
 
Do you want a product/company that will survive the long haul?  Pay attention to what will still be around after the dust settles.

chefmike8888

CJaysMusic


As said before and before, Sonar is geared more for recording and mixing. Sonar will never be a full fledged notation program as Sibelius.

It seems like you have beeen waiting for this for 6 or 7 years or so. If i was you, i would stop waiting. It isnt going to happen.
If you look at the track record beginning at the first version of cakewalk, you'll see that natation has stayed the same, for the most part. They never claimed to be a notation software and by looking at the big picture through the 15 years, they never will and that is just fine with me.

You may want to pay allot more for sonar upgrades, if notation was better, but i wouldn't.

+1 If you want notation buy it as a plug-in/separate software. Sort of like iZotope RX or Ozone.
Let Cakewalk concentrate on stable recording software and purchase you extras elsewhere.
I honestly feel that Cakewalk should do away with Notation, Matrix and Beatscape all together.
Lighten up the code a little and stabilize the core program.

And for the record, I do know how to read music. I just have no need for it in my recording program. Mike

Look, we all have features in Sonar that we never use. Example: I don't use Loops in my music or music I record. I also don't use the Step Sequencer. I wouldn't advocate for Sonar to strip out or never enhance those features just because I don't use them.

The fact is that Sonar, Cubase, Logic, Pro Tools have all pretty-much set the bar for what standard features are for a DAW. One of those standard features has become halfway decent notation. Now whether you use it or not is one thing, but other people do. To those that do however, it's somewhat important. Because it's a pretty standard feature, it's embarrassing to see how bad Cakewalk's notation is to it's competition. 

Now that said, the newer DAW's seem to care even less about Notation than Cakewalk: see Reaper, Studio One, Live. But again: for one of the bigger, more mainstream, and established DAW's to have notation as bad as Sonar's is just bad. It's completely out of step with what the competition offers in this regard.

chefmike8888

And for the record, I do know how to read music. I just have no need for it in my recording program. Mike 

I used to say that too.  But I eventually tried using SV and found it to be useful, not as a substitute for PRV, but as a supplement.  If you've got two screens, try opening both views together.  Maybe you will see what I mean.

Kev999

chefmike8888

And for the record, I do know how to read music. I just have no need for it in my recording program. Mike 

I used to say that too.  But I eventually tried using SV and found it to be useful, not as a substitute for PRV, but as a supplement.  If you've got two screens, try opening both views together.  Maybe you will see what I mean.

I like the sound ok that, Kev999, I'll have to give it a try.  Thanks for the idea.

It wouldn't be Cakewalk forums without the staff view debates. I do feel compassion for most of them. It has to be frustrating. At the same time, the more I work with Sonar, the more it is clear to me that no DAW can be master of all things. I tried doing some work in SV and it worked ok for me...but I don't make my living using staff view. I'm sure if Cakewalk dedicated more resources to SV it would be better but something else would suffer. I think Cakewalk feels they have a decent balance with the cliche always room for improvement. @Chefmike, I think they already did away with Beatscape. It had potential but never quite caught on. Matrix will never make anyone switch from Ableton if that is their sequencing style, but it is improving and is likely included because every other daw has some matrix type sequencer. As much as I hate to sound cold, I doubt Cakewalk makes a major staff view move because I doubt it increases their bottom line profit. I think partnering with third party notation programs is much more likely. If it's any consolation, as discussed in a thread I started, MPC style sampling production is not likely to happen either without third party plugins, but I'm ok with that too. I think Sonar's strengths in it's mainstay areas outweigh it's shortcomings in specialized areas.

chefmike8888

+1 If you want notation buy it as a plug-in/separate software. Sort of like iZotope RX or Ozone.
Let Cakewalk concentrate on stable recording software and purchase you extras elsewhere.
I honestly feel that Cakewalk should do away with Notation, Matrix and Beatscape all together.
Lighten up the code a little and stabilize the core program.

And for the record, I do know how to read music. I just have no need for it in my recording program. Mike

By all means Cakewalk should remove every function that you personally don't use.  People who compose with notation should have to buy Cubase or DP8 since you don't need notation.  After all it's really all about you.

lfm

joakes

lfm

joakes


FWIW Notion 4 is now 64bits and so can be rewired into Sonar.

Clt,
Jerry

Did you try, this?

I talked to Notion people a couple of months ago and they could not do that, but took notes for future.

"This is Brian from NOTION Music Technical Support. Thanks for the email. Here
are the answers to your questions:

1. NOTION3 will run as a host or a slave. Most DAW's only run as a host though.
NOTION3 does not transmit MIDI data via ReWire but you can import a MIDI file
into the program or use MIDI out to send MIDI data via the IAC Driver or MIDI
Yoke depending on your operating system.

2. NOTION3 is not a native 64 bit application and is not compatible with 64 bit
ReWire. It will, however, run on a 64 bit operating system though.

Thanks again for the email and please let me know if I can be of any further
assistance."

If they fixed midi rewire that's swell.

Anyway, I never got rewire of midi tracks to work in Sonar 8.5 at least.
So I looked among feature stuff of X2, and still nothing mentioned that this is fixed.

If you can rewire host or notation software(either way) and just selected the midi tracks you want to use - that's a really good solution.

Er, i did say Notion 4 (which is now 64 bits). That version you can rewire.


Cheers,
Jerry

Yes, I know you said "4".
But did you try it?

Does it say that midi rewire was in place in Notion 4?
They did not for x86 before, even doing rewire then and even bragging about how good it was.

Unless the link into Sonar with rewire of midi - there is no use for it!
(or the other way round).

I think rewire of midi would have been mentioned for X1 or X2, if it really was in place.
That would be more useful that Music.xml. If you use midi export/import through midi files or xml is the same thing to me.

I can do rewire of midi in Reaper either way I want.
How about Sonar X2?


And about how to use notation.
I'm thinking only of registering songs - and an easy way to get needed paperwork done for doing that.
And at occasions hiring a vocalist to prepare before arriving. Some chords an melody with lyrics is often helpful doing that. Sonar staff view was good enough I think. I'm not doing full orchestral work.

People on the Notion forum have tried it and state that it works with Sonar X2 64bit.