CJaysMusic


 

I want to mix those into a stereo master, with OUT clicks and pops.  I've done several mixes today - ALL of them have clicks.

Are you saying that the pops and clicks are being rendered into the mixed down stereo wave file? If this is the case, then I would check to see your not clipping in those areas.
 
Can you post a clip of the pops and clicks.
 
If it was a driver issue, the artifacts would not get rendered into the exported wave files
Cj

Hello CJ

Thanks for this, if you read my original post, you will see that I have already considered this as one of the prime suspects.  In many cases, as you so rightfully noted, you get clipping if your dxis are a bit "hot".  I've consequently gone through and turned EVERYTHING down.  And - I believe I have got rid of any real clipping, it does remove MOST of the worst clicks and pops, but no matter what I do, there are ALWAYS some.

So your solution is probably the biggest part of the solution - but also, you get to a point where, you turn enough things down, your output becomes about -70 which you will agree is not ideal.  So I am TRYING to keep a reasonable level, since this is ambient music, and I don't want it "in your face", I can tolerate -14 or -8 or whatever.  I can always boost it later (although I'd prefer not to).

I had basically already taken your advice, turned all the Dxis D O W N, but some clicks and pops remain.

And yes, if I none of these solutions work, I will certainly post a sample....but let me try a few of the many ideas first - if they all fail, I will put something up...


thanks CJ

jhughs


CJay got me thinking about my earlier response.  If the clicks are in the mixed down WAV file then my latency suggestion won't help.

Something else though, have you done some editing and the clicks are at the start or end of an audio clip?

Hi - no, I've done no editing at all, and the clicks appear UTTERLY at random, at ANY part of the mixed track, and, each time, in different places.  Completely random.

So I don't think that is an issue.


thanks!

d.

bitflipper


Hi

Yes, I confirm, the clicks and pops are in the exported file.

However, while you may be the most knowledgable, intelligent and skille SONAR superman in the world, I found your comment "but rather the result of a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of digital audio" to be both extraordinarily condescending and quite an insult.

If you had read my original post, I did mention that one of the problems that I WAS and AM aware of is digitial distortion, and that I had taken whatever steps I could to minimise it, in particular, the dxi in question DOES tend to run hot - I AM aware of it - I DO compensate for it.  And in doing so, I have REDUCED the number of clicks and pops significantly.

but NOT, eliminated.  now, it's possible there could still be trace clipping and I just haven't damped things down ENOUGH.  I lower and lower and lower and lower, but, as I said in a previous reply, there is a limit - I don't really want a mix down that's at -70 db.


If the clicks and pops are in your exported file, which it sounds like they are (please verify that), then you are probably experiencing digital overs. This is not a SONAR problem, but rather the result of a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of digital audio. If that is indeed your problem, then the solution is quite simple: turn everything down, put a limiter on your master bus and set its target to -1db.


So to summarise - basically, I knew all this, I had tried all this, and I thought I made that pretty clear in my post.

I will be 53 years old in a few days time.  I've been playing electric music for forty years, and recording it nearly as long.



I am aware of "the fundamentals of digital audio".

To me, it's never, ever wise to ASSUME that someone else is as stupid as a rock.  That's how your post made me feel.  You may get upset at this public reply, but my advice is - if you can say something positive and helpful, by all means do, if you can't, and instead you like to demonstrate your clear superiority by publicly condescending to a complete stranger...this seems like the wrong forum for that to me.

I have very little knowledge of the esoteric functions of SONAR.  I haven't the time, the interest, or the need.  I need the basics - recording, mixing, soft synths.  Yes, I will learn more as I work with the tool, but that takes time.  In a good week, I managed two or three hours with SONAR.  So I do not have the luxury of TIME that some of you seem to have.

So - I was very much thrown by this particular reply, because it just made me feel like an idiot when in reality, I am a tired, broken old man, in enormous pain 24/7 from my severe disability, and I don't somehow feel it's productive to be made to feel like a complete idiot, in public, by a complete stranger.


The other thing is - I speak my mind.  You may not like it, but the main focus of this response is basically to say "how would YOU like it if someone said something as condescending as that to YOU?"


peace
thank you for the advice


dave

DJSur


Never used BFD2.


You are lucky then my friend.  Works better in theory than in practice.

You're using 4 DXi synths:
Exactly which 4 are they? 
Is it multiple instances of the same DXi? 

You have spotted something no one else have, and I like your question.

It is multiple instances of the same DXi - four of them, each set slightly differently.  It's the M-Tron mellotron soft synth.

It tends to run hot, and I became aware of that months and months ago.


So, the first thing I do, BEFORE I start to mix is:

I open each synth, and turn the MASTER gain from wherever it's set (typically at around 90%) down to 50% or even 45 or 40 in extreme cases.

Then I also go into two internal modules of the synth, the A and B modules we'll call them, and reduce THEIR gain controls to a similar degree.  If I do NOT do this, I get MAJOR clicks, pops and MINOR explosions as well.

But by systematically always doing this, well, in many cases, I can almost get the clicks to zero.  It's just today, this track, this mix - it's SUPER quiet, it's mostly bass synths, it has silences, and, no matter how FAR I crank down the dxis, it STILL ends up clicking in the mix down.

I am PRETTY SURE that this is no longer a distortion issue due to the AMOUNT I have lowered the levels of the dxis = basically about 50% - still, end up with clicks in the mix.



So what is your thought then?  another user has suggested FREEZING the synths, which I am going to try ahead of all these other ideas.


Please let me know why you asked this question, and if you have any ideas or if having 4 of the same synth creates some special problem????


Thanks pal


d

Since you get clicks and pops in a mixdown I would try and turn off Fast Mixdown or Realtime or whatever it's called.(I'm not at my daw right now).

It's a different approach Sonar is doing when Fast or Realtime is checked.

Not all plugins can handle that.

Easy to try...

Happy New Year to All Sonarites....

Kalle Rantaaho


>>>>It seems to me you've been looking for solutions in secondary places. The place to do tweaking is the Options dialogue. Adjusting the latency and buffers etc.


Hello - well, once again, it seems that an assumption is being made, a similar assumption to the one where I had the "fundamentals" explained to me earlier on.  I've been in the Options dialogue - since 2008.  I used SONAR 4 for a couple of years, and I have a very good friend who is an absolute expert in digital audio, when I got SONAR 4, I went over all the settings with him; when I got SONAR 8.5, we spent an entire afternoon setting it up properly.

So while I am no expert on anything, I have a rough idea how latency works, and I am familiar enough with the basic settings under options.

>>>>Spend some time reading the manual about the settings in the Options dialogue.  The things you've been doing this far (closing internet etc) is like removing some stones from the way of your car. Instead, you need to open the hood and check the oil levels and battery cables.

So now I am an idiot with cars AND SONAR?  Hmmm.  Yes, I am stupid,  So, so stupid.  What do people expect in reply when they speak this way?  It's not courteous, or kind, or even helpful.  Is it supposed to be funny, perhaps?  It's not.

Did it ever occur to you that I had already LOOKED at latency and buffers and basic settings, and THEN gone on to do the PERIPHERAL precautions of shutting off Internet and Antivirus?  You ASSUME I am an idiot.  And interestingly, you tell me to check these settings - yet, offer no advice as to how they should be set to best avoid pops and clicks.  So condemnation - but no suggestions.  Not reallt all that helpful, is it?

>>>And about BFD. It works like any VST.

This is absolutely and utter nonsense.  I can attest to the fact, after many HOURS and DAYS of troubleshooting, that BFD2 does not, will not, and so far HAS NOT "worked like any VST".  I absolutely, violently disagree with this ridiculous assertion.

Maybe in YOUR experience (do you even OWN BFD2? - have you ever TRIED running it with SONAR??)...to quote Jimi, "well...I have".


>>Have you done the tutorial on using VSTs?

I don't need to, because my digital audio friend helped me set them up; they are all registered properly, and I understand the basics of their operation.  I am not 10 years old, by the way.


I am experienced.  VERY experienced.  With trying every mad insane or perfectly clever idea to get it to run right.
It DOES NOT run with my SONAR 8.5.  Hell, it doesn't even run STANDALONE in my system.  ON EITHER system.  With a CLEAN install.          IT    DOES     NOT     WORK.

Here is a VERY BRIEF summary of my experience with BFD2:


In the SONAR 4 days, I bought BFD2, two years ago or more.

It ran in standalone, but, not as a plug in.  It ran in standalone, I exported multitrack audio, imported it into SONAR, and I could work - crudely, admittedly, but I could work.

Then, SONAR 8.5.  I have two near identical SONAR set ups on two very good machines.  I re-set up BFD2 from scratch, carefully applying all service packs.  I have 2 TOTALLY clean installs.  Both don't work, even in standalone, much less as a plug in.  To speak frankly here - "It's just like any VST" - my ass.

Now, it doesn't even work in STANDALONE - it produces files, but the cymbals are clipped/destroyed.  (see my other post).  It does NOT output MIDI files or I would try that.

I spent many, many hours/days trying to get it to work as a plug in.  I learned how to set up a mixer profile in BFD2 to "match" a set of tracks in SONAR.  But at no point, despite help from a lot of REALLY nice and REALLY patient (and not in the LEAST BIT CONDESCENDING) people on this very forum - after days of work, I never once recorded a single drum within SONAR.  Good old BFD2.  Such a normal plug in, just like any other....NOT.

As to your ridiculous idea below - that the VST isn't working in my SONAR.....I have about 20 VST plug ins fully registered, and they ALL work like a dream.  For eample, I have True Piano, I have all the stock synths that come with SONAR producer, and I also have registered both the M-Tron Pro mellotron (this is the plug in that is causing me trouble with pops and clicks at the moment) and the BFD2 which does not work correctly in either standalone or plug-in mode.

So it's RIDICIULOUS, I've been running True Piano for example for about a year, it's flawless, it plays and records perfectly, with no pops or clicks, every time.  ALL the plug ins work fine, except for BFD2 - which doesn't work in my system (despite what you say! - it DOES NOT WORK IN MY SYSTEM dammit!).


And the M-tron runs beautifully, it's a bit "hot" so you have to watch it's output or you DO get pops and clicks.  What I am TRYING to solve now, is the last few clicks that are occuring during mix down AFTER I've lowered all the levels as far as I can.



>>>>I wouldn't be surprised if DXi-synths don't work properly in your system. Are you using BitBridge?

See above for my comments on this remark.  That's a very presumptive statement, and I take offence at it. No, I am not using BitBridge, but ALL of the synths in my systems are working fine.
So you WILL be surprised - DXi and every other kind of soft synth DO work properly in my system - with the 2 exceptions noted.


\....Are you sure the old DX-format works in 64 bit win 7 environment. I've been wondering this same in a few other threads already, but have got no confirmation from any of the gurus.

I had thought that when we say "DXi" it's just a generic way of saying "plug in".  The plug-in in question isn't a dxi, sorry if I misspoke (because unlike some of you here, I am NOT PERFECT) it's an M-Tron Pro mellotron, 4 instances in one session.


As to the need to say the things I've said in this reply and in the other, look, I am no genius, never claimed to be, but I have been around the block.

MAKING ASSUMPTIONS is dangerous.  If you ASSUME something about me (that I am, for example, as stupid as a rock) or my system (for example that my VSTs aren;t working properly) then you will wind up hurting people's feelings (mine, in this case).

Ask questions.  I don't know what detail to provide.  Don't ASSUME.  ASK ME.  I am happy to answer.

I need a solution for this.  I've TURNED THE GAIN DOWN, and I do not believe that the REMAINING clicks and pops are caused by distortion (although of course it is possible, and I will experiment more).




Suggesting that I read the manual (I have) or take a tutorial (I don't care for them, life is too short to sit and watch videos all day long) - I learn my own way, the hard way, by trying things, and, I also have my pal who helps me.  With his assistance, for example, I learned how to use plug-ins to enhance different instruments in some very complex multi-track sessions I was working on.  His input improved the sound of my tracks, and, I learned something.

I don't learn well from reading manuals, because normally, they are not written well.  Same applies to tutorials - I've watched some, but I still have to learn it the hard way, by trial and error.

I DO read the manual when I need hard facts.



I want facts, and if any of you can suggest SPECIFIC settings I might try, I welcome them.  If fact based.

But look at the array of answers I got to my post !!!  Everything from "it's distorting you idiot" to "freeze the synths" to "check your latency" to "I bet your VSTs don't even work" to a FEW who asked questions, made no assumptions, and tried to help.

It CAN'T be "all" of those things!!!  So which make sense, which are logical, fewer still, which are based on actual experience, or, which are complete GUESSES?  I cannot tell, and the diversity of the "answers" just confuses the issue further still.


So which are fact based, or experience based, and which are pure guess work?
I cannot tell - so I am forced, by default - to pretty much try them all.


At this point, if there is anyone left in this forum who I have NOT totally offended with my honest way of speaking, I would really, really REALLY appreciate hearing back from you on both the click and pop issue, and on the "how do I REALLY run BFD2 as a plug in in SONAR"??



To those folk, I thank you
and I ask forgiveness if my frank style of speaking offends anyone. 

truth is, two of those "helpful" replies really made me feel like a piece of ****.


at this point in my life, I kinda don't thrive on input like that.


thank you

dave


 

lfm

Hey - thanks very much - does anyone know what this is called, and where to find it?  I don't remember seeing this setting.  I'd often felt if the mix could be SLOWED, it might make it more precise, less likely to click - so I would like to FIND and turn OFF "Fast Mixdown"

how?

where?

exact steps please,...thanks !!!

d

Since you get clicks and pops in a mixdown I would try and turn off Fast Mixdown or Realtime or whatever it's called.(I'm not at my daw right now).

It's a different approach Sonar is doing when Fast or Realtime is checked.

Not all plugins can handle that.

Easy to try...

Happy New Year to All Sonarites....

Pureambient - Pardon the assumption, but this has clearly been, and continues to be an extremely frustrating experience for you.  A plethora of things can cause pops and clicks so without sitting at your DAW ourselves and knowing your experience level then the troubleshooting is going to include some degree of guess work. 

I'm curious now, did freezing the tracks help? 

To address your earlier question about latency, which I no longer think is the problem, yes I meant to make the latency time longer but there's no magic number because it depends on your processor and how CPU intensive the synths and effects are.

To me, it's never, ever wise to ASSUME that someone else is as stupid as a rock. That's how your post made me feel.

You're right, and I apologize if my reply seemed condescending. It wasn't meant to be.

However, you did indicate a fundamental misunderstanding when you assumed up front that this issue could be addressed via some SONAR setting, or that it was even a SONAR problem at all. That was by definition presumptuous, given that you don't actually know what the problem is yet.

If the pops and clicks are in the exported file, then it probably has nothing to do with latency or buffer sizes. I would start by examining the exported file, looking closely at a representative pop or click for some clue as to what type of interruption it is. To verify that it's not a problem with the synths, try freezing them before exporting. If the clicks are there in the bounced tracks, then it very well could be an issue with the synths. If so, try exporting in real time. Some synths and effects have issues with fast bounce.

There are no tried and proven techniques for solving problems like this. It is complex and there can be a large number of potential root causes. So have a little patience, back off on the "no speculation" requirement and thank the folks who offer suggestions, even if they're not ultimately helpful. I say this will all respect, from one geezer named Dave to another.

Thanks for the further responses, I've not been back to it yet, so have not had time to try the freezing.

I actually understand that this is a tricky problem, and that the cause could be from many different sources.   The only reason I want to cast out guesswork or speculation is that I think it makes more sense if any suggestions made are based on an actual experience e.g. "I had pops and clicks, and I did X, and they stopped".

If no one has that experience, then the next step would be "known" causes which experienced users may be aware of through reading or from SONAR documentation or fixes.

If there are none of those - then, let the guesswork begin.


The single oft-most repeated suggestion has been to freeze the tracks, so I am going to try that tonight.  If possible, I will post what happens later tonight or tomorrow.

Thank you again for all the suggestions, it does unfortunately almost have the effect of ADDING to my frustration, because I now have x number of things to try....and it's a 12:45 piece, so I have to run the export, and then sit in dead silence, with the headphones, trying to detect ANY pop or click.  Lets say the track is clean until 10:00...but then there is a nasty click.  Stop, Delete mix.

Re-mix.  Listen again for 12:45.....

I've been through that cycle all day yesterday.  Some of them were close to being OK, but, being a precise kind of guy, OK isn't good enough for this particular piece of music.


I'll let you know what happens, meanwhile, if you have any other thoughts, please do not hesitate.


Hey - what about this "shut off Fast Mix" suggestion?  What was that person talking about? 


Thanks

D.