jsg

SToons

Jimbo 88


Hey Jerry,  great post.

Wouldn't it be cool if X2 had staff view like Sonar 7 (plus a few extras!)??.

Man, that would make my life soooo much better.   

Out of curiosity, how do you find the Staff View in Sonar X1 differs from Sonar 7?

Sonar 7 has the note value selections more accesible, right on the toolbar, always visible, the track pane on the staff view is linked to the active MIDI track, so you can hear a particular instrument by clicking on it without having to leave the staff view, X1 doesn't have that, either by error or design.   Sonar 7 also does not have the bug where you select a note length and you get the wrong note as in X1.  This seems to happen when you go from inputting triplets to non-triplets or visa versa.  
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com
 

This is a sad situation.  Now I'm hoping that X2 will have the highest level of sub-par Staff View functionality which Cakewalk has ever provided 

SToons

jsg

John


That was my conclusion some time ago. In a way it was getting funny that both were arguing the same thing but didn't see it.

John,  we really are not arguing the same thing.   Gus's argument is that MIDI is not a serious medium for composers, it is a substitute medium for acoustic performances and/or recordings of acoustic instruments.  He calls this, as many do, a "mock-up".  My argument is the opposite, I argue that the virtual orchestra (or whatever we want to call it) is an artistic medium in its own right, it is not a substitute for something else.
 

I must disagree. I use a virtual orchestra as a neccessity and despite the fact I have composed professionally I do not have the clout, money, opportunity nor likely the composing chops to warrant the use of a real orchestra. So therefore, the virtual orchestra is not an artistic medium for me, it is a substitution. If I say that's what it is, then that's what it is. It's not your business to define what a virtual orchestra is to me or anyone else. Does that sound reasonable?
 
Now if you want to phrase it in a manner such as "I argue that the virtual orchestra (or whatever we want to call it) CAN BE an artistic medium in its own right, and not a substitute for something else" or " In my compositions the virtual orchestra (or whatever we want to call it) is an artistic medium in its own right, it is not a substitute for something else" that might be a little more palatable.
 
I do not believe Gus has stated that MIDI is not a serious medium for composers, he has rightfully acknowledged that an orchestra and a virtual orchestra are two different things. To suggest he, I or any other composer cares less about their "mock-ups" is quite reasonable but you seem to suggest this is a problem or failing on our parts and that is absurd. Many of my compositions are time-limited, for example if I have to do an orchestral piece for a game company which is due yesterday. If you choose to spend hours, days, weeks, months or years tweaking orchestral pieces as an expression of art that's wonderful and I'm sure you will be successful in your goal but surely you can't expect others to neccessarily share the same goal.
 
As I said, I believe you two share very similiar opinions, the main difference of note is that you seem to feel you need some affirmation that composing without using the performances of an actual orchestra is a valid artform and I don't believe anyone has contradicted that. 
 
Two simple questions: is it a goal of yours that listeners would believe they are hearing an orchestra perform when they hear one of your MIDI compositions? Are you comfortable with someone saying "I really like the composition, it's beautiful, and it kinda, sorta, almost sounds like it was performed by a real orchestra."?
 
As for the topic, I agree with your take on Sonar and their priorities. I've been reading the X1 forum for some time as I soon need to upgrade both computer and DAW (still using 8.5.3) and knowing I would have to almost completely change my workflow as X1 is so different it seems that, unfortunately, now after 15 years I have to "start again" and if that's the case I'm not sure Sonar is the best option for me. The way it stands things aren't looking promising. Logic is looking really good at the moment.

It is reasonable if you define it that way for yourself.  For me, it is my medium of choice, it is not a substitute for an orchestra, I actually prefer to work in the electronic medium, probably due to the confluence of my technical skills, musical talent and personal temperament.  Others can define it for themselves any way they choose to, but for me it is the medium of choice.  If I wanted to hear my works played by acoustic players, those options are available to me.  How many composers here actually have access to top players, sufficient rehearsal time and the capacity to get a top-notch recording of their performances?   Getting a 40 minute work performed that is not a soundtrack is not easy.  But that's not the real reason I don't pursue it.  The real reason is I love the medium I work in.    When listeners hear my pieces, I hope they find meaning in it, because I know I put meaning into it.  I am not trying to "fool" the listener anymore than when watching a film you are not really watching what you think you are, you are actually seeing countless individual frames each one frozen in time moving at such a rate that your brain is tricked into seeing what appears to be a "moving" image.  My concern is the quality of composition, orchestration, authenticity, originality and quality of interpretation (production).  I am not responsible for the reaction of the listener, it is my hope they enjoy it as much as I enjoyed making it.
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com

Gusfmm

jsg
Gus's argument is that MIDI is not a serious medium for composers, it is a substitute medium for acoustic performances and/or recordings of acoustic instruments.  
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com

I've never argumented such thing. You've either totally misconstrued or simply fabricated such assertion. To the point that I can't help but question the agenda behind some of these posts. Or maybe a revisit of previous posts will help you clarify.

Nonsense.  You called the medium a substitute and a mock-up.  Did you or did you not call it a mockup?  You actually repeated it numerous times.  You can question my agenda all you want.  I am sincere and I am being honest in my arguments with your arguments.   You are contradicting yourself.  But it really doesn't matter, you're going to keep doing what you do, and I am going to keep doing what I do.  And we both are in full agreement that Sonar's staff view could use quite a bit of improvement, regardless of how we use the software.
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com

First- The fact that I call an electronic MIDI orchestration a "mock-up" has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with considering MIDI not a serious tool for composers. There is absolutely no contradiction here, other than whatever you want to fabricate to create such an argumentation. If I thought MIDI were not a serious tool for composers, I'd not be using a computer to compose with Finale and SONAR. As basic as putting 1+1 together.

Second- Part of my argument throughout, that seems to have rubbed you the wrong way, is that I firmly maintain that a MIDI mock-up cannot be, at least as of this date, compared in realism and ultimate quality of a final product to a real performance. And I explained in some detail why, no matter how much effort you would like to claim you put into mocking-up a piece, it will never sound as good as an actual quality real live performance. Some of the notions I mentioned are fairly simple to grasp, and understand why they are what they are. They are the reason why I don't fool myself pretending a MIDI mock-up is anything that it can not be, again, at least as of this date. And they are the reason why comparing a real (quality) symphonic orchestra performance to any computer-based MIDI mock-up is totally blasphemous.

If you think your compositions and electronic performances are the product you're comfortable producing and fulfill your stylistic expectations, that is your entire discretion. Attempts to dismiss and discredit other's opinions, specially when sound arguments are on the table, really take you not too far. 

Last, I definitely feel this whole argumentation has contributed very little to the real reason for this thread to exist, so most certainly will let it regain its due course, from my end, at this point.
 
 
 
 
 
edited for typo

Gusfmm


First- The fact that I call an electronic MIDI orchestration a "mock-up" has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with considering MIDI not a serious tool for composers. There is absolutely no contradiction here, other than whatever you want to fabricate to create such an argumentation. If I thought MIDI were not a serious tool for composers, I'd not be using a computer to compose with Finale and SONAR. As basic as putting 1+1 together.

Second- Part of my argument throughout, that seems to have rubbed you the wrong way, is that I firmly maintain that a MIDI mock-up cannot be, at least as of this date, compared in realism and ultimate quality of a final product to a real performance. And I explained in some detail why, no matter how much effort you would like to claim you put into mocking-up a piece, it will never sound as good as an actual quality real live performance. Some of the notions I mentioned are fairly simple to grasp, and understand why they are what they are. They are the reason why I don't fool myself pretending a MIDI mock-up is anything that it can not be, again, at least as of this date. And they are the reason why comparing a real (quality) symphonic orchestra performance to any computer-based MIDI mock-up is totally blasphemic.

If you think your compositions and electronic performances are the product you're comfortable producing and fulfill your stylistic expectations, that is your entire discretion. Attempts to dismiss and discredit other's opinions, specially when sound arguments are on the table, really take you not too far. 

Last, I definitely feel this whole argumentation has contributed very little to the real reason for this thread to exist, so most certainly will let it regain its due course, from my end, at this point.

Well, let's just give it a rest, in the larger scheme of things our opinions can differ and both still be completely valid.  But back to the original topic, given that over 6000 visits to this threat have accumulated does anyone think there is something we can do to persuade Sonar to invest some more time and thought into improving the staff view as a MIDI input tool?   I am assuming we are all in agreement that the staff view is not intended to be a full-fledged notation program as Sibelius or Finale is, but rather a method of inputting and editing MIDI data.   But even just as that, it is buggy and not very professional.  As I've mentioned several times I still use Sonar 7 because my experience with the staff view in X1d was, to be polite, not what I expected (new bugs, old problems).  
 
I hope many of you have taken the time to fill out bug reports and communicate to Cakewalk your experience with the staff view.  Maybe one day...
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com

This thread was useful to me because now I know of various alternate programs (some free, some ridiculously expensive and some in the middle) that I can use as a substitute for some of my needs. It'd be nice to see the SV update or have a paid add on but whatever. Cake will do what they do. I'll work around that.

Up to this date, the announced feature list at the bottom...

http://blog.cakewalk.com/sonar-x2-sneak-peek-upgrade-pricing/#more-9358

As usual, no mention of staff view improvements. Cakewalk really is not listening to the many musicians who are clamoring for some bugfixes in the SV. Perhaps it's not listed and we will be pleasantly surprised...

New features in SONAR X2 Producer include:

• New enhancements and improvements
• MusicXML export
• And much more

Kinda funny the list says "New enhancements and improvements"...that is a given and poor writing,    but not funny cause it does not say Staff View. 

MusicXML export already exists (but does not work 100%). 
 
Perhaps staff view is included in the  "And much more"

Staff view can not be that hard to upgrade....

On the X2 teaser page..we have this....

Flexible export options
NEW! Integrated SoundCloud
NEW! MusicXML export
Export Video
Cakewalk Publisher
Print Notation



If you look at the very bottom of the page mentioned you will notice the Official X2 Preview Page notification...and I found this comment...Print Notation under the Deliver Icon..hover the mouse over it....