Theres been a huge investment in pro tools in colleges and schools ever since the integrated Sibelius..  Some of these future users will continue to use protools as their weapon of choice.

since cakewalk omitted traditional notation symbols in favour of 'half , quarter note etc.. 'they just lost out on an order for at least 20 copies at school. Wonder how many other schools rejected it too.. I know of lots of schools who still use Logic for pc.. Which is over a decade old .. Why? Notation.
The market exists - good companies spot the opportunities... 

The fixes needed are small and possible..
Bring back notation symbols please...
Add tied triplet please.
If possible - Cakewalk have got drum maps function which could be developed into articulations key switches for sample libraries... 

Simples!

Beepster


Also PRV is great for a lot of things but it is a huge hassle compared to proper notation scoring. If you know what you are doing on the staff tonally you can get stuff done WAY more easily than with PRV. The PRV, IMO, would then be used for adjusting dynamics and more intricate editing of not length (as figuring out note duration is actually more complicated in notation than PRV). Just some thoughts.

i thought the prv was the answer to the drw back in time it took to score all your parts.
have you used the prv beepster?
if you havent then this may be an unfairstatment your making saying staff view is so much easier,if thats indeed what your saying.

.

For what it is worth. I would like to have the same editing tools in the staff view as in the PRV including control over SNAP.  I do not need to export scores I just want to have the tools to compose in the view I understand.  PRV is fine for percussion.

Anyway... back on topic, and I'd like to ask a question regarding note input via Staff View. Let me explain, in a round about way;
When I input notes directly onto the PRV, I always, at first, drop all of my notes bang on the beat, if you know what I mean, and I don't pay much attention to dynamics at this point. I'm primarily working on melodies, harmonies, rhythms, and the interaction between each. Might not be the best way, but it is my way.


What you end up with is a stereotypical MIDI computer composition with no feeling, every note bang on time and would only be at home in a poor 1990s computer game.


I'll then go back over the individual parts and I'll start to pull things around a bit, altering velocities and note positions in an attempt to put some "life" into the piece. I do all of this in PRV, because in the early days, I do not recall being able to finely tweak notes in Staff View, and that is one of the reasons why I stopped using it really.


So the question I am asking, I suppose, is can you do everything in Staff View nowadays? How does it handle grace notes and fills? In the light of the passion shown in this topic, perhaps I should give it another chance, to at least see how things have changed over the years.




cheers


andy

OK, this question was not directed at me,  but it is a very good question and I'm soooo glad you asked it!!!
 
Working in a strict notation program like Finale or Sibelius you end up with a composition that sounds just as you described "a stereotypical MIDI computer composition --  a bad 1990's computer game sound".  Those programs have little ability to add any life to the sounds. 
 
In Sonar (and most DAWs) you have the tools to create something that sounds realistic,  something that people can listen too.  Staff view becomes essential if you are composing for any kind of music work for real instruments.  Let's say you want to do a Big Band Jazz score.  Not being able to work with the score is like playing Chess and not being able to see the whole chess board at one time.  You will be able to do it,  but much, much more effiecent if you can see and move your voicings in a staff view.  And there are, and will always be, many people who just need to compose looking at a staff.   If Sonar is strictly an audio recording/mixing app, then fine.  Me and many others will have to move on.  But one of the big reasons I jumped into Cakewalk was it had a workable staffview.   
 
So, as many have said,  we do not necessarily need Sonar to print out a publishable score.  Just be able to work at a reasonable level with the Staff View.  Sonar has been going backwards here.  And many of us are trying to point out the advantages of not doing so.
Back to your original question... Sonar does not handle grace notes and fills very well.  In fact,  not a as well as it use to.

Elffin


Theres been a huge investment in pro tools in colleges and schools ever since the integrated Sibelius..  Some of these future users will continue to use protools as their weapon of choice.

since cakewalk omitted traditional notation symbols in favour of 'half , quarter note etc.. 'they just lost out on an order for at least 20 copies at school. Wonder how many other schools rejected it too.. I know of lots of schools who still use Logic for pc.. Which is over a decade old .. Why? Notation.
The market exists - good companies spot the opportunities... 

The fixes needed are small and possible..
Bring back notation symbols please...
Add tied triplet please.
If possible - Cakewalk have got drum maps function which could be developed into articulations key switches for sample libraries... 

Simples!

YES!  +1   Last January I was asked to teach a class at a college in a Masters program.  The students were at a very high level and what where they all required to work with???  
 
Logic and Sibelius. 
 
2 reasons,  
Apple Computers and  Notation.    

Maybe cake can’t fix the notation in sonar without a complete rewrite and this is why they have chosen not to address the issue. I’m not aware of any major updates since it was introduced.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions there Jimbo. On reflection, I should support the campaign for better functionality within staff view. At the end of the day, Sonar, for me, has been about flexibility and choices...

rabeach


Maybe cake can’t fix the notation in sonar without a complete rewrite and this is why they have chosen not to address the issue. I’m not aware of any major updates since it was introduced.

That was what the jump from 8.5 to X1 was suppose to accomplish.  A complete rewrite.

@chuck... Hi, dude. How are, ya?
I have indeed used the PRV and I am certainly not ragging on it. I will be using it quite often for multiple reasons, one of which is although I understand notation these days I am not as proficient as I'd like to be. Also PRV would be my go to for tweaking note lengths and volume/articulation. But that does not negate the usefulness of the notation staff (and that point actually doesn't have anything to do with Sonar or any other program. It is just the nature of the staff itself).
I'm not sure how in depth you understand notation or general theory principles (and it doesn't matter because I'm of the mindset that if it works for you then do it) but you must appreciate at the least how much screen space using the Staff View saves as well as enabling a smoother workflow because the notes are grouped more tightly together. Look at it this way.
In PRV all twelve chromatic notes are displayed stacked on top of each other. That is twelve separate lines of data just to achieve one octave. With the notation staff immediately you are cutting out five of those lines because instead of displaying all of the non sharp/flat notes we use key signatures and accidentals to represent those tones. Furthermore we are using the spaces AND lines to put our notes on as opposed to a space for every letter note. That makes it so we are using 4 spaces to achieve the same amount of tones the PRV needs 12 spaces to display. So that is one way the staff is more efficient.

Now probably the most important and beneficial reason to use the staff are key signatures and the concept of consecutive letter note names. Each key has 7 unique notes. These notes follow alphabetical order and no note is repeated or omitted. As you know each line and space on the staff represents one of these letter name notes in order. In C which has no sharps or flats you can easily just hum a bar and write it down on the staff if you are familiar with the steps/intervals of the key. Want a different key? Simply toss a key signature on the staff and use the appropriate letter note as your starting point. There is no guess work and you don't even have to have the specific note names memorized for every key. In PRV you do have to know that stuff or work through trial and error (unless you are a proficient keyboard player and have the key forms memorized I guess). Also in PRV the notes don't go consecutively right after another. You have to account for the spaces between each step of the scale which are sometimes there and sometimes not and that can make inputting (IMO) more difficult and cumbersome than on the staff.

There are a ton of other reasons like easily constructing and expressing chords, inversions, transposition, etc... but the above are a couple of the more useful characteristics of the notation staff. When it comes down to it it's just another tool but an extremely powerful one and it is the universally agreed upon language of music. It just makes sense to have it running as well as possible which from the sounds of things it is not. I've used the SV a couple of times so far for simple stuff and it works but it is certainly quirky and not very intuitive. I could see it becoming a real problem if I started getting a little more ambitious which is most definitely going to be happening... and soon.

Anyway, hopefully that clears up my views and probably some of the views of the folks who have been wanting an improvement as well. It really is hard to grasp how much easier notation can be compared to other input methods without fully understanding it. I think that's why we get this constant back and forth on the topic around here. It would be like if Cakewalk decided to let the PRV languish and become unusable for anything pro and instead put all the attention on the staff and then users who'd never used or understood the PRV dismissing those complaining. That would anger a lot of people and for good reason I think.

As I said though to me it's not a deal breaker and I'm certainly not bent out of shape about it but it sure would be nice to have a top notch notation input option. Hope that all makes sense. Cheers.