• SONAR
  • Staff view enhancements (p.3)
2017/11/16 16:57:11
WallyG
sharke
I don't understand the argument "it's not meant as a notation program" when people complain about the triplet problem. The piano roll isn't meant as a notation program either, yet it understands triplets perfectly well. There is no credible argument to justify the staff view having problems with triplets or any other common rhythmic figure. 




I agree! I collaborate with my son who lives in Japan. For his parts I need to send him sheet music. His parts usually have some triplets in them so I can't use Sonar Staff View. I instead have to save his part as MIDI, import it into Sibelius and print out from them. I don't need a Notation Program with edit capability just print out the parts correctly!
 
Walt
2017/11/16 17:45:33
michael diemer
jkoseattle
I don't think it's a matter of whether notation view is viable or not. While I agree that traditional notation is not going away ever, the way computers work doesn't lend well to it, which is why it's not great for a DAW. Notation has always been an approximation of the sound, operating under the "well, you know what I mean" paradigm. Baroque composers would put a squiggle over a note which meant "do some sort of trill thing" and just what that was was open to interpretation, by design. Computers are terrible guessers, they are strict literalists, so that every last thing has to be spelled out for them. Traditional notation just doesn't work like that, which poses three unsolvable problems: 1) Traditional notation doesn't contain all the information a computer needs to play the music correctly, 2) There is a lot of information in the music that notation can't communicate, and 3) the exactness of computers eliminates the "you know what I mean" aspect to notation, leading to things like whole notes tied to trailing 16th notes.
 
BUT... what notation does provide elegantly that any DAW would be capable of reproducing is a clear picture of what's going on in every instrument at any given time. Track View comes closest to this, by having each instrument on its own row, but it falls short because of how clips get made and rendered. (i.e. you can have clips with no notes in them, or a clip with a bunch of legato repeated 16th notes looks identical to a clip with one long note in it, etc., etc., etc.). PRV usually fails in this, because instruments all occupy the same vertical space, so there's a lot of overlap.
 
Combining PRV and Track View into a new view designed to solve this problem is totally possible. Imagine PRV with separate rows for visible tracks, and a dynamic Fit Content option which fits visible content and adjusts all the time, so that most or all notes are visible on-screen no matter where you are in the piece. Add to this a gradient background, so that low notes are displayed on a darker background than high notes (instead of having to look at "C3"). And the view would always show all tracks that currently have notes in them and hide those that don't. 



Your suggestion for a new view combining staff and prv is very interesting. It makies me think of Cubase. Cubase's track view is interesting in that it has little notes in it, showing the vertical and horizontal relations in the musical content. But you can't select a subset out of the whole, or at least I don't know how to do that. Still, there is the consideration of ranges of instruments. The great usefulness of a stave is that you see exactly what the notes are. This allows you to instantly pick out mistakes, like having the violins playing an F on the bass clef, which is below their range (they only go down to G, unless you use scordatura, having the player retune the string, which is pretty unusual). If you're arranging a string section, you need to see all the five groups (two sections of violins, plus violas, cellos and basses). This lets you make sure you have ranges correct, but also how well the parts fit together. Of course, your ear is the final arbiter here, but the visual matrix of notation is indispensable for most composers. And yes, there are composers who prefer working in a DAW vs a notation program. Especially ametuers or hobbyists, who need the feedback of decent sound to assist with their orchestration.
 
I think your idea has merit and I hope somebody picks up on it. A new synthesis, a new paradigm even, of how to display music in a way that all musicians could use, both notation types and prv types, would be a game changer.
2017/11/16 23:32:27
BenMMusTech
Joe_A
With all the options, anyone want to share more on Notation Composer? Or others, now I'm interested.



Hi Joe, I've been meaning to answer this question for you. I use Notion 6 by Presonus, I've used it since 2011. For the price, it is the bomb. It can be rewired into Sonar too.
 
I just want to mention, to follow on from my comment earlier...when I said Cakewalk should drop the score page in Sonar. I wasn't attacking or complaining about it or indeed Cakewalk for not 'fixing' the score editor. After using Notion for almost 6 years now, I now understand how difficult and pointless it would be for Cakewalk to make the score page even halfway useful. Notion 6 and the orchestral instruments in Notion 6 all respond to theoretical notation makers like dynamics and slurs for examples. Notion 6 also allows you to write custom rules, so VSTis can also respond to musical notation. It would be very time consuming and I suspect expensive to get the score editor to at least the point where you could customize VSTis to respond to the written musical markings within the score editor. Sonar seems to be primarily designed for songwriting...not composition - there is a difference. And for the most part, the people who use Sonar are tradition songwriters...not classical composers - although I straddle both worlds these days. This doesn't mean Sonar can't be used by classical composers for mixing - something I would encourage classical type composers to experiment with, as I will trumpet this till the cows come home - Sonar is by far the best DAW for any type of digital audio work IMO. The tracking screen, and mix screen really are the most intuitive I've ever used, and I've used all the major DAWS. 
 
My point does stand though...just dump the silly score screen. It actually probably makes Sonar look at bit half baked particularly to new users. 
 
Ben 
2017/11/17 02:39:25
riojazz
Please do NOT request that Cakewalk delete the staff view function, no matter how it works. 
 
I hope this doesn't become another 1000+ post thread of complaints and misunderstanding, but I'll just mention that some of us use staff view for editing MIDI within SONAR.  This is a completely separate task from exporting to a dedicated music notation program.
2017/11/17 05:24:54
michael diemer
If they dump staff view, there will be a number of users who will abandon Sonar. I don't know how large that number is, but why would they want to lose any users in such a competitive market? I would be shocked if they dumped it. Why close doors, as the saying goes?
2017/11/17 15:07:19
sharke
I'd still love to see Cakewalk partner with a notation software company to integrate a "lite" version within Sonar, kind of like how a lite version of Melodyne is integrated. It could just have enough of the basic functionality to be able to get a score into Sonar, without any of the bells and whistles related to producing professionally typeset scores and without the orchestral libraries that typically come with notation programs. They could charge a fee for an upgrade to a full version of course. It would be a win win situation for everyone - Sonar users would have good quality notation functionality, Cakewalk wouldn't have to be embarrassed at having such a bad notation editor, and the developers would get a ton of new business from the upgrades (as Celemony has from Sonar and Studio One's Melodyne integration). 
2017/11/17 17:06:44
DrLumen
sharke
I'd still love to see Cakewalk partner with a notation software company to integrate a "lite" version within Sonar, kind of like how a lite version of Melodyne is integrated. It could just have enough of the basic functionality to be able to get a score into Sonar, without any of the bells and whistles related to producing professionally typeset scores and without the orchestral libraries that typically come with notation programs. They could charge a fee for an upgrade to a full version of course. It would be a win win situation for everyone - Sonar users would have good quality notation functionality, Cakewalk wouldn't have to be embarrassed at having such a bad notation editor, and the developers would get a ton of new business from the upgrades (as Celemony has from Sonar and Studio One's Melodyne integration). 


I was just thinking about the same thing. Perhaps the lite version would not support codas or have more than x tracks in a view at one time.
 
I used the CW staff view years ago before finding the PRV. I honestly don't understand why it is so difficult for them to have a decent staff view. The rules for notation are out there. While I have no doubt some notation rules are just semantics (the staff is drawn up below this note or ...), it seems like the basics could be implemented rather easily. shrugs.
2017/11/17 21:25:58
Joe_A
Notion 6 looks pretty good, and affordable.
2017/11/17 22:29:46
michael diemer
I use Notion, currently still on 5. For the money, you can't beat it. The sound library is so good I wish I could use it in Sonar (I'm pretty sure you can't).
2017/11/18 07:30:57
jsg
BenMMusTech
 
I think it's time Cakewalk put this bugbear to bed and just drop the 'notation' screen in Sonar. It does not work, and it is useless. Sorry Cake. But someone had to say it. 
 
Ben 




This is news to me.  I just finished this piece using the notation editor, it works fine, other than the tied and dotted triplet issue:
http://www.jerrygerber.com/mp3/Tenth%20Symphony%201st%20movement.mp3
 
Jerry
 
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