I've found working with video extremely buggy in Sonar. I get projects in Quicktime mostly and they have been a pain to import and work with in Sonar.

It's a hit and miss endeavor that requires me more than often to transcode the video in order to use it inside Sonar. Some files for example will not work no matter what I do. Not only that but it becomes extremely unstable when moving the starting point or changing regions. Exporting video is also very problematic. 9 times out of 10 I have to export audio then resync to video using another program.

Now this is NOT proper video integration as one should not have to do the hokey pokey when working with video.

I was wondering if anyone has a much more FLUID way of working with video or if maybe there are some settings that I might have overlooked. As I find myself working with more and more video it becomes really frustrating to have to change formats and do a thousand workarounds for something that should be straightforward.

Please chime in if you have experience in this. So far the only thing I'm succeeding at is losing my patience and going crazy trying to figure out why things aren't working. Thanks again

QT is just a container for video. The actual compression can be done from a multitude of codecs. Granted Cakewalk could include more codecs for video in the software but it's easy to find a good MOV to AVI converter for free and just make that a part of your process. As for exporting video, as mentioned above there are so many codecs and resolutions that SONAR would be the last place you should be exporting video from. It is an audio program. The video options are only there for display really. Most people compose against the video and then export Broadcast Wave files to appropriate final editor.

Storm


QT is just a container for video. The actual compression can be done from a multitude of codecs. Granted Cakewalk could include more codecs for video in the software but it's easy to find a good MOV to AVI converter for free and just make that a part of your process. As for exporting video, as mentioned above there are so many codecs and resolutions that SONAR would be the last place you should be exporting video from. It is an audio program. The video options are only there for display really. Most people compose against the video and then export Broadcast Wave files to appropriate final editor.

Hi Storm,
 
Thanks for the reply. Have you worked with video inside Sonar a lot? The workflow you describe uses workarounds, which is what I do right now and I wanted to avoid. I think I stated that clearly in my OP.
 
Not only that but it can result in desyncronization problems when working with big files. Also, the AVI format is problematic inside Sonar too - not as much as other formats but still.
 
I'm not aware of any, but please feel free to point me to an established film or TV composers working with the workflow you describe. To me it seems redundant and amateurish at best.
 
Yes, I know Sonar is an audio program, but I have Premiere Pro, which is a video program, and yet I have no problems importing audio files in it (the major formats, wav, aiff, mp3 etc) and having it work just fine.
 
Anyway, I'm not really asking for some "never before seen" features in an audio program that says it works with Video. Logic and ProTools are working just fine for video... it's just that I don't like them as DAW.
 
The reason for exporting Video from Sonar is NOT because you want the video, but because you get an audio file completly synched to the video, which can be used in a regular video program to resync to the original video - especially useful when working on long pieces, like a 120 min movie and you're exporting a small part.
 
The last thing you want to do is export plain audio then manually spend time finding and resynching to the right part in the film... Have you ever done this? Do you know how much fun it is to search for the right millisecond without any video or smpte cues??...  :)
 
Anyway, if done right, it should be NO PROBLEM exporting video from Sonar to the original format (assuming you can bring it into the original format in). Sonar should just replace the audio from the vid, with no need to resample the video image. It's not like I'm looking to do Video Special Effects from Sonar :)

I've posted this a thousand times..  I'm kinda swamped with work until the 1st of the year,  but when I get a free day I'm going to do a screen capture video on my working system with vegas and Sonar.  Simply it goes like this:

1) Open Vegas and 1st frame of pic goes at the :10 mark.  Add streamers to let me know where music starts and stops.  Generate Mpeg1 or AVI File.
2) OPen Sonar import video and score pic/music cue.  Start with inputting the correct SYMPTE TC in  Preferences>Clock
3) Mix stereo wav from Sonar.  Open Vegas and drop in new music.
4) Render Quicktime to send to client for approval.  
5) Upon Approval spit an OMF to send to Mix.  OMF's are time stamped.  Or you could render a Broadcast stereo wav.

You say you want to avoid "workarounds".  This is not a workaround for me.  This insures that I work as quick as i can and not deal with Picture issues.  THere are many reasons that I just don't have time to get into today in a post...I'll explain later in greater detail. Look for a screen capture before the end of the year.   
 

Jimbo 88


I've posted this a thousand times..  I'm kinda swamped with work until the 1st of the year,  but when I get a free day I'm going to do a screen capture video on my working system with vegas and Sonar.  Simply it goes like this:

1) Open Vegas and 1st frame of pic goes at the :10 mark.  Add streamers to let me know where music starts and stops.  Generate Mpeg1 or AVI File.
2) OPen Sonar import video and score pic/music cue.  Start with inputting the correct SYMPTE TC in  Preferences>Clock
3) Mix stereo wav from Sonar.  Open Vegas and drop in new music.
4) Render Quicktime to send to client for approval.  
5) Upon Approval spit an OMF to send to Mix.  OMF's are time stamped.  Or you could render a Broadcast stereo wav.

You say you want to avoid "workarounds".  This is not a workaround for me.  This insures that I work as quick as i can and not deal with Picture issues.  THere are many reasons that I just don't have time to get into today in a post...I'll explain later in greater detail. Look for a screen capture before the end of the year.   
 

Right on, Jimbo.


This is the same workflow I recommend. 


I'll add just a bit. For scoring in Sonar, export a low-resolution Quicktime .mov. The reasoning here is you're simply creating an audio score in Sonar; you're not creating the final end result. This greatly reduces the workload on Sonar when creating your music. 


OTOH, if you're merely adding already produced audio/music to the video, there's no need to drop into Sonar at all - Vegas has masterful multi-track audio capabilities which are more than on par with Sonar.

Jimbo 88


I've posted this a thousand times..  I'm kinda swamped with work until the 1st of the year,  but when I get a free day I'm going to do a screen capture video on my working system with vegas and Sonar.  Simply it goes like this:

1) Open Vegas and 1st frame of pic goes at the :10 mark.  Add streamers to let me know where music starts and stops.  Generate Mpeg1 or AVI File.
2) OPen Sonar import video and score pic/music cue.  Start with inputting the correct SYMPTE TC in  Preferences>Clock
3) Mix stereo wav from Sonar.  Open Vegas and drop in new music.
4) Render Quicktime to send to client for approval.  
5) Upon Approval spit an OMF to send to Mix.  OMF's are time stamped.  Or you could render a Broadcast stereo wav.

You say you want to avoid "workarounds".  This is not a workaround for me.  This insures that I work as quick as i can and not deal with Picture issues.  THere are many reasons that I just don't have time to get into today in a post...I'll explain later in greater detail. Look for a screen capture before the end of the year.   
 

Hi Jimbo,
 
Thanks for the input. You say this isn't a workaround for you?? I might be a bit slow, but I don't get it.
 
Here's the PT workflow.
 
1. Open movie in PT.
2. Export movie when finished with sound.
 
Here's your workflow:
 
1. Get new app (Vegas in your case - in my case Premiere)
2. Fiddle in new app to transcode and mark regions
3. Export in NEW format that Sonar likes, because although Quicktime is listed as working, it's a hit and miss option - mostly miss..
4. Do you work in Sonar
5. Open other app and fiddle again to transcode
etc...
 
I think you get the point. I know... this is not a workaround to you... and I guess you can call it 'making Kentucky Fried Chicken'... but it sure seems like a workaround to me.
 
This is pretty much what I do right now, as I noted in my opening post, and then again in my first reply.
 
I'm not sure how getting a new app involved in the process, switching formats and all the work that goes along with that is NOT a workaround in 2012. But to each his own.
 
Maybe I'm the only one on here, but I've experienced problems with both Avi and Mpeg especially when changing starting point, region.
 
Forgive me, but I find it hard to understand this mentality: it's like when your car breaks down and other people suggest bringing in a new car to tow it as a permanent solution... This may be a quick remedy, but I hardly see having the towing car as a long term and non-cumbersome solution.
 
 
 
@SuperG  you said "Right on, Jimbo. This is the same workflow I recommend."
 
Why do you recommend this? Based on what? I'm not sure I understand. Do you find this situation better in the tv and film stuff you score vs the 2 step listed above? Why?
 
Do you often use complicated workflows instead simple ones that accomplish the same thing? Is there a reason for this? Do you get something extra out of going through a third application to achieve the same thing? Have you tried other DAWs before you reached your conclusion that this way is the best way?  
 
As noted in the previous post, please point me to some established film and tv composers working like this? I guess it's possible, if you feel massochistic :)

Well Firefly,  I have my reasons and i would do the same working in Protools.  I have a way to prepare pic that makes my workflow fast.  Because I prefer working in Windows any QT file could be trouble...nothing to do with Sonar.

I do no fiddlin' I have my settings ready to go.  If you want to compose in Protools be my guest.  i want nothing to do with it.  You'll have to check out the screen cast  i will produce.   I have 10+ hours of picture to score between now and Feb 10th, so...i won't be able to get to it soon.  

firefly9000

Jimbo 88


I've posted this a thousand times..  I'm kinda swamped with work until the 1st of the year,  but when I get a free day I'm going to do a screen capture video on my working system with vegas and Sonar.  Simply it goes like this:

1) Open Vegas and 1st frame of pic goes at the :10 mark.  Add streamers to let me know where music starts and stops.  Generate Mpeg1 or AVI File.
2) OPen Sonar import video and score pic/music cue.  Start with inputting the correct SYMPTE TC in  Preferences>Clock
3) Mix stereo wav from Sonar.  Open Vegas and drop in new music.
4) Render Quicktime to send to client for approval.  
5) Upon Approval spit an OMF to send to Mix.  OMF's are time stamped.  Or you could render a Broadcast stereo wav.

You say you want to avoid "workarounds".  This is not a workaround for me.  This insures that I work as quick as i can and not deal with Picture issues.  THere are many reasons that I just don't have time to get into today in a post...I'll explain later in greater detail. Look for a screen capture before the end of the year.   
 

Hi Jimbo,
 
Thanks for the input. You say this isn't a workaround for you?? I might be a bit slow, but I don't get it.
 
Here's the PT workflow.
 
1. Open movie in PT.
2. Export movie when finished with sound.
 
Here's your workflow:
 
1. Get new app (Vegas in your case - in my case Premiere)
2. Fiddle in new app to transcode and mark regions
3. Export in NEW format that Sonar likes, because although Quicktime is listed as working, it's a hit and miss option - mostly miss..
4. Do you work in Sonar
5. Open other app and fiddle again to transcode
etc...
 
I think you get the point. I know... this is not a workaround to you... and I guess you can call it 'making Kentucky Fried Chicken'... but it sure seems like a workaround to me.
 
This is pretty much what I do right now, as I noted in my opening post, and then again in my first reply.
 
I'm not sure how getting a new app involved in the process, switching formats and all the work that goes along with that is NOT a workaround in 2012. But to each his own.
 
Maybe I'm the only one on here, but I've experienced problems with both Avi and Mpeg especially when changing starting point, region.
 
Forgive me, but I find it hard to understand this mentality: it's like when your car breaks down and other people suggest bringing in a new car to tow it as a permanent solution... This may be a quick remedy, but I hardly see having the towing car as a long term and non-cumbersome solution.
 
 
 
@SuperG  you said "Right on, Jimbo. This is the same workflow I recommend."
 
Why do you recommend this? Based on what? I'm not sure I understand. Do you find this situation better in the tv and film stuff you score vs the 2 step listed above? Why?
 
Do you often use complicated workflows instead simple ones that accomplish the same thing? Is there a reason for this? Do you get something extra out of going through a third application to achieve the same thing? Have you tried other DAWs before you reached your conclusion that this way is the best way?  
 
As noted in the previous post, please point me to some established film and tv composers working like this? I guess it's possible, if you feel massochistic :)

Sure firefly...just as soon as you point me to some 'established' composers...

Then again, your post kinda begs the question: If you're a PT fanboi, whatever would you be doing here?

No studio is going to use the video output from PT either. There are too many media forms to release final product in - and PT is not the tool for that. Scoring is done before even final edits are complete. Final releases are done using specialized codecs designed for human-guided optimization on a scene for scene basis. And they cost big!

Not even MediaComposer is used for media releases. 


Even in PT, why ever would you want the performance hit with full up video, unless of course you're using HW acceleration boxes for video and audio. However if you're not using the new HDX boxes, you risk losing your fanboi permit, if not for visting Cakewalk forums alone.




Basically - nobody does full video in a midi-editor, and nobody needs a midi-editor for audio alone.


How 'bout 'dem apples, Cartman?

Jimbo 88


Well Firefly,  I have my reasons and i would do the same working in Protools.  I have a way to prepare pic that makes my workflow fast.  Because I prefer working in Windows any QT file could be trouble...nothing to do with Sonar.

I do no fiddlin' I have my settings ready to go.  If you want to compose in Protools be my guest.  i want nothing to do with it.  You'll have to check out the screen cast  i will produce.   I have 10+ hours of picture to score between now and Feb 10th, so...i won't be able to get to it soon.  

I agree - I DON'T want to compose in PT - it is horrible for that... hence my post here in Sonar country. I own PT but hardly use it.
 
I'm curious though WHY do you say QT files could be trouble? Are you just referring to Sonar? In PT I never had any problems with them - big files too.
 
I guess your point is: IF you want to work in Sonar you have to suck it up and deal with the extra steps.
 
I'm starting to get that - but you can't tell me that this is standard normal procedure... Sonar should just work with QT directly, like PT and Logic. Having your "settings ready to go" does not erase the fact that you're making the workflow more convoluted. 
  
Are you telling me that if you could get Sonar to work with video like PT with no external applications or problems it would not make a difference to you?
 
But you said you have your reasons so I respect that. If they're not secret, could you please share? For me, I don't see any reason for complicating my workflow - but then again maybe you may open my eyes to something new. Always up for learning.
 
At the end of the day, if it works for you, more power to you. My post here was about seeing if I could mirror the ease of importing, working with and exporting video out of Sonar as it is in PT or Logic.
 
My workflow now mirrors pretty much what you do, but I would hardly call this a normal workflow.

Sure firefly...just as soon as you point me to some 'established' composers...

Then again, your post kinda begs the question: If you're a PT fanboi, whatever would you be doing here?

No studio is going to use the video output from PT either. There are too many media forms to release final product in - and PT is not the tool for that. Scoring is done before even final edits are complete. Final releases are done using specialized codecs designed for human-guided optimization on a scene for scene basis. And they cost big!

Not even MediaComposer is used for media releases. 


Even in PT, why ever would you want the performance hit with full up video, unless of course you're using HW acceleration boxes for video and audio. However if you're not using the new HDX boxes, you risk losing your fanboi permit, if not for visting Cakewalk forums alone.




Basically - nobody does full video in a midi-editor, and nobody needs a midi-editor for audio alone.


How 'bout 'dem apples, Cartman?

 
??? Whaaat??? :)
 
"How 'bout 'dem apples, Cartman?" - LOL, what apples dude?... I think you're in a different orchard. 
 
You really have not read my posts very well.
 
I'm far from being a PT fanboi - quite the opposite. The only thing I'm a fanboi of is things that work right.
 
Take a chill pill and relax man - life is short :) I NEVER said you need to do full video for use in video editing programs as the main video. That would be ridiculous. 
 
Ehhh - you might have gotten that had you read my post fully... but damm those pesky words and sentences, they're so hard to understand. Would have saved you half your post that makes no sense in relation to what I was saying.

PS: Most composers receive QT files and shuttle them back and forth between them and the director. If you're doing it in PT or Logic you it's a 2 step process with no need to involve other apps.