firefly9000

SuperG
You wanna know which other product can add audio to a video stream without a transcode? This isn't the place for that - try the DVForum or a manufacturers support forum.

But you knew all this from the get-

Whaaaaaat??? :)
 
It's like you're responding to a different thread entirely. Yep, why should I post "looking for Sonar video integrating solution" on a Sonar forum... I should go to the manufacturer's support forum - what do you suggest: Sony - Adobe?? Where should I put my Sonar Video Question - Perhaps Panasonic can help me.
 
I explain it as clear as I can, but you appear to have an paranoic complex that makes everything I say seem, in your imagination, as having some dark hidden motive against you. 
 
You make all these accusations based on your interpretation of my posts. Do me a favor and DON'T speak for me. If I have a problem I will say it flat out as I'm doing with you my fine chap. Speak for yourself ONLY as I didn't try to speak for you.
 
If I'm looking for an interpreter of my posts, you'll be the first to know.... promise :)
 
It should give you pause for thought that everybody else on this thread was able to have a civil dialogue, although they may not have agreed with me, EXCEPT for you...
 
Good luck in future endeavors - You're going to have tons of fun working in a team where back and forth problemsolving is required.
 
I'm sure your teammates will love the "Why do you bring up that problem - are you trying to start trouble?" line of thought.
 

Civility starts with acknowledging one's own words. I may stand accused of misinterpreting your intent - but in no way am I misinterpreting your words. It is not I that needs to re-read your posts, I would suggest that you do so.

Essentially, you do not post a question asking for advice and then proceed to dismiss it (re 'quibble'). It is presumptive and entirely rude to someone who has taken the time to assist you. As you suggest - re-read your own post, as written. Why you chose to do so - well, I'll take your advice and refrain from interpreting that.

There's plenty of advice that we can give you about Sonar - and we can recommend solutions involving other products. Nothing wrong with that - it's done all the time. But expert advice on non-CW products is limited here, and it be less than kind not to point that out - it does not extrapolate to an assertion that mentioning non-CW products is verboten, as you have suggested (interpreted?) of me. Suggesting a check of other sites for more detailed information than is possible here is just plain good advice.

I speak only for me and no one else, and my 'comrades' as you say speak only for themselves. Ummm, I will refrain for interpreting your intentions for bring that up...

Most simply refrain from posting when being treated shabbily, good advice actually, then again, I'm not most people. I don't blame them.

As far as helping others, the last time I mentioned that I have done so professionally, for many, many years, quite successfully, it irked some who felt I was show-boating, or something like that.

I have dealt with all types of problems and all types of customers. The difference is, I'm not required to ignore rudeness quite as much, this isn't my bread and butter. 

A little bit of honey goes a long way - but people should expect to be treated in-kind.

Jimbo 88

firefly9000

Jimbo 88

Yep,  never tell your client "go suck it".  I tell them "send me the file anyway you want".  Then I let Vegas handle any issues.
  
Do you really need to match Your clients codecs to send back?  That would be a PITA and not sure I could do it.
 
 Premiere, i believe, is more advanced than Vegas.  But Vegas comes in various cheaper, lite versions and looks/acts like most DAWs.
 
When i export a wav out of Sonar it is the same length as my Picture file.  So no syncing is necessary.  That process can be painfull also.   

Yes, unfortunately most of my clients want the SAME video back, just with different sound - my soundtrack. It's stupid, I know, but I can't really get them to change for me.
 
Here is kind of what I face:
 

• I get a piece that has no audio, or has SOME audio as in just some sound effects of dialogue that I need to nail the music around. Everything I receive is in QT.

 

• I then have to go and transcode for Sonar from Premiere.

 

• I do my work in Sonar - BTW I sometimes have problems if I move the starting point of the piece... but I guess that's just me because I don't see others complaining.

 

• Then I export audio, take it into Quicktime Pro and do audio swap. That feature essentially just inserts audio into the original video, or swaps it, without actually re-encoding it. Premiere on the other hand re-encodes the video often ending in an undesired result.

 
All the steps described above are kind of a pain... from the Premiere to QT (which you'd think would work fast because .mov is native to it). Maybe Vegas is easier...
 
Would not be as painful if I had longer deadlines but I often get last second things in the evening that they want tomorrow. Totally unreasonable... :) but if I don't deliver there are 100 other guys waiting to take my place.
 
Here's another problem I faced once - I transcoded a video in a very small rez format to be easy for Sonar to "swallow"... I had to do a piece that would sync a certain hit precisely with what a character was doing on the screen so as to create a sort of almost foley effect.
 
Because the resolution was so low, I couldn't see exactly the detail of when the visual hit was, so I tailored things on the next frame (24p). Problem was when I added it to the high-rez QT file, it was a bit offset... You wouldn't think that a 24th of a second or two makes a difference but it does. It looked wrong... usually image has to preceede sound if it doesn't match exactly on top (the way it does in the real world - you see the lightning then you hear the thunder). It looked bad so I had to redo in Sonar etc... Unfreze tracks, set effects, automation etc... :)
 
God help the guy who does foley with low rez video as a guide :P
 
@dubdisciple - Never really got into Audition. I can imagine the integration with Premiere is pretty awesome. Still, I love the Sonar workflow... it allows for the quickest way to sketch a piece (at least for me). I'm hoping not to come to the choice of picking either good composition workflow vs good video support - Obviously I choose the composition workflow, but I want to have my cake and eat it too :)

Ah, whats a Sonar, 'video codec' thread without someone typing, "Sonar is not a video editor" ...usually thrown out at random and with no relevance to the topic.   ..in other news..

Quicktime is not 64 bit, so you will never get it to work in Sonar or X anything that is 64 bit, unfortunately. 

You can adjust the start time of the video in Sonar, by going to video properties, and adjusting the "trim in" time.  It is not ideal, but in some cases it can help.

My workflow -
Small video -

    Receive video  - Convert using the free program "Any Video Converter".  Convert to WMV, because AVI has never worked in Sonar, on my system(s).  
    Import WMV video in Sonar - 
    Export - Export audio then insert audio in my original QT movie.  Ideally there will be a 2 pop in the film with SMPTE burned in, to make syncing easier.

Bigger video project
    Use Vegas to chop up scenes and sections
    compose each cue as its own project so I'm not dealing with a 1.5 hour video 
    Reinsert later in Quicktime Pro

I don't have the opportunity to do many large video projects at this point, but I do many small ones.  Some are given to me with Timecode and some not.  Recently, I had 2 clients request WMV files back, and not Quicktime.  In these cases I rendered in Vegas. 

I have read Jimbo's workflow in past threads, which turned me on to Sony Vegas, a total lifesaver! 

LpMike75


Ah, whats a Sonar, 'video codec' thread without someone typing, "Sonar is not a video editor" ...usually thrown out at random and with no relevance to the topic.   ..in other news..

Quicktime is not 64 bit, so you will never get it to work in Sonar or X anything that is 64 bit, unfortunately. 

You can adjust the start time of the video in Sonar, by going to video properties, and adjusting the "trim in" time.  It is not ideal, but in some cases it can help.

My workflow -
Small video -

    Receive video  - Convert using the free program "Any Video Converter".  Convert to WMV, because AVI has never worked in Sonar, on my system(s).  
    Import WMV video in Sonar - 
    Export - Export audio then insert audio in my original QT movie.  Ideally there will be a 2 pop in the film with SMPTE burned in, to make syncing easier.

Bigger video project
    Use Vegas to chop up scenes and sections
    compose each cue as its own project so I'm not dealing with a 1.5 hour video 
    Reinsert later in Quicktime Pro

I don't have the opportunity to do many large video projects at this point, but I do many small ones.  Some are given to me with Timecode and some not.  Recently, I had 2 clients request WMV files back, and not Quicktime.  In these cases I rendered in Vegas. 

I have read Jimbo's workflow in past threads, which turned me on to Sony Vegas, a total lifesaver! 

Yes you can get qt movies to work in 64 bit X2 by doing what I posted in my last post on this thread. I say this because I do it often. 

The Shart007?  First I have heard of it, I will give it a whirl.  Thanks for sharing

It'd be a folly to do foley in Sonar... 

I'd recommend either PT, Audition, or Vegas. Foley work is better suited to an audio only editor. I'm sure it's possible in Sonar, though. The tools above have finer control over quantization and framing control, very necessary for that type of work.

Okay Folks - Here is an INTERESTING solution that utilizes another computer.
I have yet to be able to set this up as I need to connect another computer in my working loop. I do have a laptop sitting around though :) Wonder if this can pan out of if I'm opening another can of worms here :)
It basically uses another computer to sync via MTC or Midi Clock. I've take the liberty of making bold the things that may appeal to someone working with video on a regular basis

http://www.humatic.de/htools/chaingang.htm#135

from the vendor's website:
ChainGang is a value for money solution for synchronizing video playback to MIDI timecode or MIDI Clock. Based on code that handles synchronized multiscreen video playback in humatic's artistic work, it was developed to give project- and professional level AV and PostPro studios an affordable way to free the main audio production hard- and software from the burden of in-sequencer videoplayback by passing that task to laptops or additional machines that may stand around unused.
As more and more tone generation and audio processing is performed by plugins and virtual instruments, the deployment cycles of DAW PCs seem to become shorter and shorter. ChainGang potentially can help you squeeze another year out of your hardware by offloading video to a secondary computer for just fractions of the costs of an all new system.
Besides its primary purpose ChainGang presents a simple way to do synchronized multiscreen video installations or timecode synchronous teleprompting.

Features:

• Plays and syncs all video formats Quicktime supports
• Windowed or fullscreen video playback with optional & size adjustable onscreen timecode display.
• Adjustable frameoffset in both positive and negative direction. Absolute offsetting up to 24h
  
• Optional Midi through
  
• Optional full frame position Midi out on manual seeks to reposition the master sequencer from the video slave.
  
• May send and read MIDI Machine Control (MMC)
  
• Optional synchronized audioplayback
  
• Automatic timecode vs.video framerate check with visual feedback.
  
• Full Quicktime export functionality to eventually adjust media to hardware capabilities. (no Quicktime Pro key required) (I wonder if this means that is just replaces the audio withou re-encoding the video, the same way QT pro does)
  
• Total recall operation. The program remembers all its operating parameters and restarts in the way you have last shut it down, thus freeing you from the need to load setups or adjust parameters over and over again in daily production work (setups can be saved and restored, too).
  
• Virtual 00:00:00.00 frames. An unlimited number of virtual zero frames allow to split audio work into multiple projects.
• Import audio, save & export movies for quick demoing or any other reason.
• detailed MIDI monitoring facility.
• Selectable display adapter for fullscreen mode
• Support for 24p / 23.976 fps NTSC movies
• Supports Quicktime Video Output Components for hardware playout to Blackmagic Decklink & eq. boards.
• Minimal GUI / always on top option
• Built-in ethernet MIDI system compatible w/ OS X Network MIDI or its Windows equivalent rtpMIDI as well as ipMIDI
• Recent file history to quickly recall setups.
• May act as a timecode master in MMC loop setups.
• Frameoffset routeable to MTC & MMC or MTC only
• Offset learn mode to map any videoframe to any incoming timecode value.
• License may be stored on USB stick, allowing you to run the program on multiple machines.
• Folder / batch import option

There's something else that I wanted to ask on this thread although it's slightly off topic:

Don't you guys feel more "connected" to the video/film when you can see BEAUTIFULL FULL FRAME images instead of some low rez little window somewhere?

I worked in a studio where we had a sync setup to an (very expesive) external player. I put the full image on a separate screen. I cannot tell you the difference that makes to INSPIRATION :) ... Truly night and day. It just brings me INTO the story, whereas writing to a small image does not have the same impact.

Beautiful - absolutely beautiful to breathe in the full frame and write to it. I guess it would depend on the composer, but for me it makes a big difference.

At the end of the day we do art, and we should get the equipment to bend to our needs as much as possible... not the other way around.

Appologies for the unrelated rant but I feel very passionate about this aspect... after all, we're not doing accounting :)

firefly9000


There's something else that I wanted to ask on this thread although it's slightly off topic:

Don't you guys feel more "connected" to the video/film when you can see BEAUTIFULL FULL FRAME images instead of some low rez little window somewhere?

I worked in a studio where we had a sync setup to an (very expesive) external player. I put the full image on a separate screen. I cannot tell you the difference that makes to INSPIRATION :) ... Truly night and day. It just brings me INTO the story, whereas writing to a small image does not have the same impact.

Beautiful - absolutely beautiful to breathe in the full frame and write to it. I guess it would depend on the composer, but for me it makes a big difference.

At the end of the day we do art, and we should get the equipment to bend to our needs as much as possible... not the other way around.

Appologies for the unrelated rant but I feel very passionate about this aspect... after all, we're not doing accounting :)

+1
 
My clients send me lo-res ruff cuts until they get to the "Picture Lock".  The look and feel of the picture does effect the way music sits and feels against it.   Occasionaly I will think the lo-res pic works better,  but that might be because I stared at lo-res for hours on end.  
 
A couple of times i have scored  a project,  then checking out the final mix and feel I might have done things differently had I worked with the Hi-res picture   

firefly9000


There's something else that I wanted to ask on this thread although it's slightly off topic:

Don't you guys feel more "connected" to the video/film when you can see BEAUTIFULL FULL FRAME images instead of some low rez little window somewhere?

I worked in a studio where we had a sync setup to an (very expesive) external player. I put the full image on a separate screen. I cannot tell you the difference that makes to INSPIRATION :) ... Truly night and day. It just brings me INTO the story, whereas writing to a small image does not have the same impact.

Beautiful - absolutely beautiful to breathe in the full frame and write to it. I guess it would depend on the composer, but for me it makes a big difference.

At the end of the day we do art, and we should get the equipment to bend to our needs as much as possible... not the other way around.

Appologies for the unrelated rant but I feel very passionate about this aspect... after all, we're not doing accounting :)

Kinda sorta.  I do feel more connected when I have a full-rez image to work with, but I realize that's not going to happen without sacrificing something in Sonar  so i reserve my "connection" for when i get the pristine sound back into my video editor.  This may be easier for me to do since i am primarily a video editor and graphics guy, so most of my work environment is going to be in the video editor to begin with.  I'm sure i would feel different if i were actually trying to compose to the visual instead of simply matching it up